Conquer Club

Mod Note:Abandoned - If resurrected, this one must be checked again.

Map Name: Asia / Greater Asia? / Asian Continent?
Mapmaker(s): MrBenn, Peter Gibbons
Map Size: TBC

Current Draft - 1st July 2010

• I've had this update for some time, although it definitely needs a lot more work yet!
• I'm not convinced about breaking Russia up - I quite like it as one big territory (but that's just me, I guess).
• I've added territory names, and started playing around with getting them to fit... it's definitely going to be a squeeze in some areas, but I'll work on that in due course.
• The region groupings are still tentative, although for the most part I think they make sense how they are. Pakistan could easily be shifted into the Indian Subcontinent, and would probably make that a better bonus, although it would make the "Stans" a lot harder to hold.

Previous Draft

• I still need to finish off the Indonesian bit of the map, but most of the other borders are sorted now; hence the updated draft (which is still missing territory names at this stage):
• I'll probably add a couple of extra island territories in due course; but for now the discussion should continue around sensible bonus regions, and any natural impassables that could be added in sensible places.

==========================
Introduction
I've rarely played the Asia map, but was just doing so due to the setup of one of my tournaments. I find the map good from a gameplay perspective, but pretty weak in almost every other aspect. Then I started to think how it isn't even all of Asia to begin with, which led me to thinking of the Europa map, which I think is one of the best on the site. That caused me to contact its mapmaker, MrBrenn, with an idea that is probably obvious to those reading this right now...

I am proposing a new map of Asia that, like Europa, would contain every nation-state on the continent. There will be some major issues to iron out because some countries dwarf their neighbors in Asia, but it worked out really well with Europa and I think it can be done here. So the goal of this project is to construct a graphically pleasing Asia map that stretches all the way from Yemen to Japan and from Indonesia to Turkey. So with the basic concept out of the way, here's an initial design brief.

Map Name
???? - This might be my biggest stumbling block of all! To my knowledge, there's no natural metropolitan name equivalent to "Europa." And "Asia 2" is out because it signifies a revamp. "New Asia" also makes zero sense. I'm racking by brain but hoping that someone in the foundry will have the creative spark.

Map Territories
46-51 (there will be debate on this both for political, geographic and gameplay issues, but I'm thinking the following entities are on the borderline for inclusion: Palestinian Territories, Cyprus, Seychelles, Maldives, Taiwan)

Aims/Design Style
I'm leaving this one to MrBrenn to fill in. I recruited him because I thought he might be intrigued about creating a follow-up to Europa. I'd be happy for him to pursue a similar design, but I'm also very much open to it being taken in an entirely new graphical direction. In other words, watch this space!

Uniqueness
See introduction above.

Relevant Experience
Me? Well, none--other than offering my occasional two cents on about 20 or so maps that have gone through the foundry. But I am partnering with a somewhat experienced cartographer!

So, with that, the idea is out there. MrBrenn and I have exchanged PMs and I'm posting this per his instructions. I'm sure we should get a little discussion going here before he launches into an initial draft, so have at it! Is this a map that people would like to see? If so, as I hope, what sort of input do people have to offer? There are gameplay hurdles to overcome as I've mentioned (I'm imagining we need some impassables, unlike Europa), so all ideas are welcome because other than the general thought of "hey, let's have an Asian map like Europa!" I haven't hashed this out too far.

I'm going to throw out two potential options for bonus regions. Both options have obvious problems so hopefully the foundry community can help carve out the perfect scenario. Also, we're going to need better names once we decide which regions to use and which states go within them. For now, these are placeholders:

Option 1
Arabian Peninsula
Mediterranean
Mesopotamia (Iraq, Jordan & Kuwait - and I know that isn't an accurate name)
Central Asia (Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan)
Former Soviet Union
East Asia (including China, Mongolia and Taiwan if included)
Indian Subcontinent
Southeast Asia
Island Nations

Option 2
Russia (we might have to consider making Russia some sort of unique territory because of its borders--perhaps with a +1)
Caucuses
Arab States
Israel (again as a +1 autodeploy)
Turkey/Cyprus (just a +1)
Central Asia (bigger version, with the Soviet states)
Indian Subcontinent
Indian Ocean islands (optional; if we don't do this, Sri Lanka goes to the Subcontinent)
Southeast Asia
East Asia (China with Mongolia and the Koreas)
Pacific states (Japan, Philippines, Indonesia, etc.--would be an odd bonus region but might work)

Anyway, those are two options I've thought of to start because I didn't just want to throw a map idea out there without some structure. I've got a feeling neither of these will be used, but hopefully they help direct discussion.

Peter Gibbons wrote:I'm going to throw out two potential options for bonus regions. Both options have obvious problems so hopefully the foundry community can help carve out the perfect scenario. Also, we're going to need better names once we decide which regions to use and which states go within them. For now, these are placeholders:

Option 1
Arabian Peninsula
Mediterranean
Mesopotamia (Iraq, Jordan & Kuwait - and I know that isn't an accurate name)
Central Asia (Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan)
Former Soviet Union
East Asia (including China, Mongolia and Taiwan if included)
Indian Subcontinent
Southeast Asia
Island Nations

Option 2
Russia (we might have to consider making Russia some sort of unique territory because of its borders--perhaps with a +1)
Caucuses
Arab States
Israel (again as a +1 autodeploy)
Turkey/Cyprus (just a +1)
Central Asia (bigger version, with the Soviet states)
Indian Subcontinent
Indian Ocean islands (optional; if we don't do this, Sri Lanka goes to the Subcontinent)
Southeast Asia
East Asia (China with Mongolia and the Koreas)
Pacific states (Japan, Philippines, Indonesia, etc.--would be an odd bonus region but might work)

Anyway, those are two options I've thought of to start because I didn't just want to throw a map idea out there without some structure. I've got a feeling neither of these will be used, but hopefully they help direct discussion.

Well why not do one on Pacfic states. Japan, Philippines, Indonesia and of course Thailand needs to be in there! I was thinking of doing a map of Thailand, maybe another time tho. Good idea P.G

I say why not. I'll give more comments when you have a working draft...

I'll have a rummage around later, but for now here's a reference image with the Asian countries named:



There's a nice projection of Asia on wikipedia too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Two-point-equidistant-asia.jpg

Rename current map Far East, new will be Asia. Only downside is that it may be confusing [to] have the name be with a new map.

What I'd like to see would be the whole continent of Eurasia: Europe and Asia in the same map. But maybe in another project...

Ps. You could always call yours "Asia 2.1"

I like it. I'd play it. More responses when a draft if posted.

Here's the first draft I've whisked up - it's more to get a feeling for the shape, which I'm pretty certain will have to be through an overhaul, as all the large territories are in the same area. The coloured regions have been divided where they felt natural-ish, although they're all pretty big, and it would be nice to have a couple of smaller regions thrown in somewhere. I've lumped labels on for lots of things, but have some pretty big concerns about squeezing everything in, especially in the Middle East

Nice. I think you should still represent the non-playable terts, though.

Yeah, it will be redrawn completely anyway - I need to find a different projection that gives more space at the bottom of the map

I really like that water texture. It might look good if it was darkened so as to bring out more contrast with the land.

Nice look; it reminds me of Europa (I wonder why?). However, after looking at the map, I realized that we'll get into the whole Israel/Palestine issue. From what I remember, there was a huge argument apropos of the Middle East map and the Israel Palestine issue.

Here's an alternative bonus distribution that, to me, makes a bit more sense:



Certain borders might need to either be exaggerated or glossed over, like Afghanistan-China and North Korea-Russia. The Middle East rectangle from Qatar to Lebanon might have to be in an insert because of the smallness of the countries involved.

^ why is there pacman's face in the east shore of china?

I prefer Dim's allocation of areas in Asia, it seems more natural to me.

And that little dip in China's western border... isn't that Chinese Kashmir and part of China?

gobble gobble!

natty_dread wrote:gobble gobble!

lol. So is there an actually draft of this map yet? I have not yet seen peter post a draft? or am i not seeing it? Very interested as I live here in Asia

-griff

mr. benn posted the draft on page 1

Evil DIMwit wrote:Here's an alternative bonus distribution that, to me, makes a bit more sense:

Click image to enlarge.

Certain borders might need to either be exaggerated or glossed over, like Afghanistan-China and North Korea-Russia. The Middle East rectangle from Qatar to Lebanon might have to be in an insert because of the smallness of the countries involved.

After a little bit of thought, I was going to suggest something a bit more like that; although I still think there need to be some smaller regions to give people somewhere to start.

I've spent the evening looking at map projections (http://www.quadibloc.com/maps/mapint.htm ), and have found an Azimuthal equidistant projection that makes the Middle East a bit bigger without distorting the rest of the continent. I'll sketch out the new land borders at some point over the weekend I imagine; in the meantime, any further suggestions for groupings would be gratefully received.

I see the sense in keeping all of Russia as a single continent, although the Transcontinental region made a nice little starting bloc.
It makes sense to add Kazakhstan to the region with the other -stans which also makes that bloc defendable.
The Middle East will link up with India via an ocean route between socotra (Yemenese Islands) and the Lakshadweep islands.
I like the grouping for India that DIMwit suggested, although I expect we might need an impassable between nepal/bhutan and china?
With Indonesia, we'll need to decide what to do with Malaysia, which occupies two separate landmasses. I included Papua New Guinea for completeness, even though it isn't technically in Asia!
Japan and the Japanese islands could make for a nice small bonus, separate from China.

That's just some random thoughts for now!

MrBenn wrote:After a little bit of thought, I was going to suggest something a bit more like that; although I still think there need to be some smaller regions to give people somewhere to start.

In the Middle East, we could separate the Arabian Peninsula from the Fertile Crescent.

MrBenn wrote:I like the grouping for India that DIMwit suggested, although I expect we might need an impassable between nepal/bhutan and china?

Agreed; it makes both geographic and gameplay sense.

Hmm... I think a Japan, Japanese Islands, South Korea, Taiwan bonus could work well as a small area.

Might as well include Papua New Guinea... its on the same damn island.

If it were the Malay Peninsula then I would say through it in that South East Asian group. But since its a multiple land area thing... Include it in the other bonus and keep it one country. I think Indonesia made a grab for it after both Malaysia and Indonesia got independence and the Malay's repelled the invader quite well.

I believe Phuket is not a country. Neither is Andaman and Nicobar, Sokotra, or Lakshadweep... Shouldn't Indonesia be one space? If the idea is to depict every country, then stick to it... which presents an interesting situation for Taiwan...

Industrial Helix wrote:If the idea is to depict every country, then stick to it... which presents an interesting situation for Taiwan...

Surely some exception can be made here. Look at the Europa map: Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland are all different territories; as are the constituents of the United Kingdom; as are Russia and Kaliningrad. It makes perfect sense that Taiwan be separate from mainland China -- you might even go so far as to separate Hong Kong/Macau from the rest of the country.

Evil DIMwit wrote:Surely some exception can be made here. Look at the Europa map: Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland are all different territories; as are the constituents of the United Kingdom; as are Russia and Kaliningrad. It makes perfect sense that Taiwan be separate from mainland China -- you might even go so far as to separate Hong Kong/Macau from the rest of the country.

Yeah, that's a good point. Taiwan does in fact have autonomy despite lack of recognition. HK and Macao are similar really. I could see them having their own territories as well. I feel differently about places like Phuket and some of those obscure islands in the Indian Ocean. Likewise for each of the Indonesian islands. It should all be one.

Industrial Helix wrote:

Evil DIMwit wrote:Surely some exception can be made here. Look at the Europa map: Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland are all different territories; as are the constituents of the United Kingdom; as are Russia and Kaliningrad. It makes perfect sense that Taiwan be separate from mainland China -- you might even go so far as to separate Hong Kong/Macau from the rest of the country.

Yeah, that's a good point. Taiwan does in fact have autonomy despite lack of recognition. HK and Macao are similar really. I could see them having their own territories as well. I feel differently about places like Phuket and some of those obscure islands in the Indian Ocean. Likewise for each of the Indonesian islands. It should all be one.

This was my initial thought, too.

Taiwan and Palestine both have some recognition and I tend to think we should use them--unless we don't need to (or if including Palestine is too difficult given the geography).

I'd be wary of using Hong Kong and Macau since they are A) so tiny and B) have lost autonomy, rather than gained it. But if using them helps the map, I'm all for it.

Indonesia is an interesting case. I was going to firmly state we shouldn't divide it, but then I think of the Balearics, Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily on the Europa map. I think if we stick with the larger islands like Borneo, Java and Sumatra, we could have something. Japan is tougher, though.

I'm going to think about it a little and present a list of the territories I think we should use.

Also, in order to focus gameplay, I really believe that the first big decision has to be what to do with Russia. The "European Russia" and "Asia Russia" is one option, but that sort of defeats the purpose of it only being an Asian map. What do people think of Russia being a starting neutral then a +1 autodeploy?