[Abandoned] - Danelaw

[el-presidente]

I really like the map seen how it looks: I do have some gameplay concerns though.
Will Denmark territories attack each other? If so, players could be eliminated first turn, even without taking one, as they have only one terit.
Do the boats attack back to the terit they go with? It doesn't say.
You have to think more about the boat placement. For the moment the G-boats have a MAJOR advantage. The player that starts with those boats will have a +1 continent way too soon and can easily take a +4 city soon after, with no-one close to stop him. The best bonuses the S-boats can dream of, on the other hand, are a settlement and a city. They will never grab a continent and their terits won't be easy to defend as they will have too much borders. They will have to fight themselves to a better place, like West Wales, while living as 'nomads' and having to abandon their city and settlement. The V-boats are even worse: they only have one settlement close and are very very close to the O-boats. These O-boats have a city to take and so many more armies. Byebye V-boats.
I want to emphasize I really like the map idea and especially the look. Great work. Please continue!

Wishing you luck.

This will be clearer later, but cities will start with a lot of naturals, so G will take a long time getting exeter. The +1 bonus isn't that much either, since it is 2 teritories and +1, but a settlement is 2 terits. away and +2.
Also, the city nuturals will delay O for a long enough time if they go for Eoforwic that V can sort of trap O in and so they can't expand.

[herschal]

I like this a lot! Is it ready for an advanced draft stamp?
More blue in the ocean please!

[eigenvector]

Hey,

This look like an interesting map. One small comment for now: maybe you can remove the longitude/latitude lines? They are great for feel but a little too hard on the eyes, imho.

Keep up the good work!

[oaktown]

You guys have the makings of a fine map here. I see the same quesitons are coming up about the gameplay (can boats attack denmark, denmark attack with the country, etc) so these things have to settled and spelled out on the map.

In terms of making it look old, you'll have to consider everything from color choice to the font - right now the font looks like a 20th century typewriter.

Oak, I have been looking all over, but I am really having trouble finding what the Anglo names of a lot of the regions are. If you have any source you know that might help us would really be appreciated.

It'll take some work... first, Google "8th century England" (then 9th century england, etc.) and you'll get some nice old maps. For any region you can't find from a map, read its wikipedia entry and it should tell you the history and old names.

To get you started...

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

One small comment for now: maybe you can remove the longitude/latitude lines? They are great for feel but a little too hard on the eyes, imho.

Sorry to double post, but a solution might be to keep the lat/long lines over the seas, but not on the land where they are distracting. For example...

Click image to enlarge.

[dolomite13]

I like the idea behind this map and think you have some interesting gameplay here.

A few observations.
- I have to agree, the long/lat lines are distracting.
- I think you should also not italicize the (s) and (c) next to the name, but that's just a graphical nitpick not something that would hamper gameplay.

A few questions?
- Can you attack from territory to territory in Denmark or are the borders there impassible like the "New World" map?
- If the borders are impassible can ships attack back to Denmark?

Looking forward to this one making the transition to the Foundry =)

-- D


New World - viewtopic.php?t=38601

[whitestazn88]

hey, i'm here for the preliminary review.

i believe this is my first time looking at the map, and its pretty interesting, got a nice color to it, not too bold, but not too pale.

at first i thought this was a conquest game, but its not... which is why i'm a little confused on the gameplay.

in reality, whats the point of having denmark there, and the boats etc... there doesnt seem to be a purpose for them. if i were playing this game and i didn't have to roll through all those neutrals, i think it would be much better. furthermore, can the territories in the denmark box attack each other? i would assume not, but its not mentioned, and maybe should be.

so overall, it looks good, and the actual land area looks playable and has a good assortment of bonuses. but i don't see why the boats are necessary, clear that up and i would say its foundry ready, but as of now, that needs to be worked out

[lostatlimbo]

Interesting map. It appears to be very much like the New World map, but with much more going on.

I have to say first off that I fully agree with others who feel the lat/lon lines are distracting and cluttered. Oaktown suggested using them in the oceans only, but since you have so many boats there, I think you're best off dropping them completely. They don't add anything to the map, imho.

Ditto for the font - it is very difficult to read, especially since you are cramming so much into small spaces. Several of the letters seem to be squished together.

You say that the Danish ships can attack each other and Denmark, but thematically, this doesn't make sense to me. Why would the ships attack their own homeland and compatriots? If the British are fighting back against Denmark, would they use those ships or their own? I realize this is only a conceptual concern, but it just seems odd to me.

It is difficult to speculate on gameplay since I cannot see anywhere that you have specified how many neutrals are applied to territories v cities v settlements. However, I tend to agree with the poster who noted that some ships have a distinct advantage. Your explanation that it would take longer because of neutrals is irrelevant. Per your example, suppose Vrlong tried to block in the Olric player by fortifying Westmoreland. What long term defense does this player have with only one possible bonus (of only 2)? It would only be a matter of time before the Olric player was receiving +6. The Kravash situation is even more lopsided. If I was the Elsforth player, I would immediately go from one of my ships and try to beat either Glorg or Kravash to their bonuses, because I would otherwise have no hope of a significant bonus in the first several rounds.

Your bonus for Wales is far too low. You must hold 7 territs (if ships can attack each other, then Lincon is vulnerable) for a +9 in New Mercia. In Wales, you must hold 8 territs for only +6??? (and 12 territories total compared to New Mercia's 9 total). On that note, even Old Mercia's bonus seems small considering you have to hold a whopping 10 territories for only +11. I think you definitely need more impassables here.

You have similar issues with Northumbria (5 for +3) and East Anglica (3 for +1). You seem to have based all of these on the notion that ships cannot attack each other, but you have since stated otherwise. If that is true, the bonuses need to account for this, as you'll either have to fortify the connected countries or the ships connecting to them.

Good luck

[cairnswk]

Hi Nexus & el-presidente....i'm here for a map review and have some considerations....i have only read back through the last two pages - please ignore if something has already been thrashed.

1. I like the concept since it has historical relevance. Towards this for gameplay, have you considered making this an objective map? My thinking here is that while there was invasion from the Danes, there was no reverse invasion of the Danish homelands. Therefore the objective would be to conquer and hold all the English territories for one turn, and not have to worry about conquering the Danish territories.

2. With regard to the lines of latitude and longitude, [url="http://www.broward.org/library/bienes/lii14010.htm"]Ted Andros[/url] tells me that the lines of latitude were known B.C. but the lines of longitude were not properly formulated until 1760. My suggestion would be to drop them. this then gives you some extra space you're going to need for the small map.

3. I have uploaded a smaller downsized version to show what you'll have to pay attention to with regards to legibility and fitting everything in, if you haven't considered that already. Getting around this issue may need some of that extra real estate you can apply at this time.

4. Think about some other differentiating colour for one of those yellow regions.

5. At present the region names stand out more that the territory names on the small map, leading my eyes to those names and i would consider this distracting if playing the small map.

6. I agree with oak's suggestion about the territory naming issues being more on historical names, which i think you're already investigating.

7. Gameplay is still being discussed so i won't add anything more there when others are more qualified to comment on that.

Onwards and upwards, and good luck...motioned for advancement.

[lt_oddball]

damn the danes and their eyes..


I like the map..it still adds flavour to the other england maps..

One remark:

I don't like it that it is fixed which danish province is going to land in which english province (via fixed ships).
That creates predictability.

How about this:

Those boats only served as transport barges for invading troops...I don't recollect reading about navy battles fought at sea (with greek fire, roman spears, and venetian rams) amongst the viking dragons.
So: make one boat marker that returns to 2? neutral after each player.
Each danish player Must assembly troops large enough to OVERCOME the crossing (if +3 per begin turn: wait another turn..if +5 per begin turn, you may give it a shot)..once in the boat you can choose your landing (any of the 8 or 12? landing places) and attack ONE DIRECTION only.
That landing place is small/large enough to guarantee you'll make it (1 neutral..surrounded by 3 or 5 neutrals).

In order to RETURN to denmark you'll need to have a shipyard and a big settlement in England (as if to claim the Danish crown):
Hence ANOTHER boat marker at sea (return to 5 neutral after each player turn) that is accessible only from each of the Cities (one way direction) towards any of the danish terr. (of any other player).
(so a marauding army can only pick one danish player at a time! and not swarm over all of denmark after the first return crossing).
...Mistake: if the troops are large enough he can attack several danes during the same turn.
So how is this: there are 8 return vessels (5? neutral) one way direction to one specific danish terr.
That way you can make sure that max. only one return attack is performed per turn.
(unless the city starting army is so huge that the vessel neutral is no hindrance to overcome... but that is a matter of tweaking).

The 1+8 vessels can be placed anywhere on the map..with explanation in the legend.

I think that improves game play concept..

[el-presidente]

Ok, that is a lot, I like it, but I might miss something, so don't get mad if I miss something, I'm sure naxus will catch what I miss.

Some concerns that were raised.

1- Lat/Long lines. Will be removed.
2- Denmark I guess this needs to be clarified. Each denmark territory is a starting territory, everything else has nuturals, with cities and settlements having more nuturals. Each teritorty in denmark can attack 2 ships and can be attacked. They are like your ships and can take you there and back, which is why it is 2 way. The denmark teritories cannot attack each other. I'll have to look over your suggestion It_oddball, I kinda don't get it.
3- Objective or not. I was thinking mabey to have it like get all cities or all settlements to win. All of england would not really make scene, since it would be so much per turn that you pretty much win anyways.
4- The yellow teritories, one is brown.
5- The region names, they could be made lighter.
6- I have changed things to be more accurate, but not much changes, exept wales.
7- Bonuses, keep in mind that there are settlements too. I wanted the region bonuses to be downplayed and have settlements and cities be more of the focus.
8- ships, they cannot attack eachother. It doesn't say that anywhere.

Thanks for all the comments!

[AndyDufresne]

In regards to "Objectives"---if they add depth to Game play, by all means use them. If they are just added on gimmicks because we can put them in a map, I abhor them.


--Andy

[eigenvector]

lt_oddball's suggestions sound great to me, I second them

With one amendment perhaps: I see no need to guarantee the landing.Let each Viking take his chances. I.e. The landings can be occupied and fortified at will by the other players.

[lt_oddball]

The denmark teritories cannot attack each other. I'll have to look over your suggestion It_oddball, I kinda don't get it.
Thanks for all the comments!

Compare it to the New World Map:

Denmark. is like Europe... the individual terr. cannot attack eachother.
In the New World Map each landing point zone (fixed) is like your viking vessel (fixed direction).
Wouldn't it be greater/more free if as a French Player you'd be able to chose to land in Brasil ? in stead of Canada?
So in order to be able to do that in your map you should create a single sea transfer point (to overcome the perils of the crossing of the North Sea).
((technically you could skip the ship in the sea and attack any of the 8 landing points in England directly..but then you have the chance that a player is so succesfull with dices (or tactic of first building up until attacking) that he lands simultaneously on 2 or 3 landing points.
And we don't want that.
Hence the need for a transfer point that returns to a neutral threshold (of +3 ?) for the next player.
Of course the same player is free to make another landing at another neutral place or that of other players the next round (like real life ?).
But if you want to reduce that possibility then you must tweak the neutrals lower around a landing point (incentive to expand) and to increase the boat transfer neutral to a higher amount.

There is a downside to this though: in fog of war any next player that attacks the transfer ship can see immediately where all the other players have landed...(but back in history , wouldn't the sons of the danish king have known from eachother where the other one would have sailed to ?).
((but here is a solution to that: returning the landing point back to neutral (+1) after the player finished his turn ..so he MUST have attacked a second land terr. after that in order to "survive".... the next fog of war player then sees nothing and may bump into his predecessor.. ))

And for the return trip to denmark.. it's almost the same as in the New World Map except you can choose from your own city which transfer ship to which danish terr. to take .
(In NEw World Map example: instead of fighting your way in brasil to the dutch landing point and thus continuing the fight back to only Holland..you now get the opportunity to conquer a big colonial city which gives you the opportunity to attack for example the Portuguese neutral vessel (threshold) which takes you to attack Portugal.

If you had only ONE return transfer vessel which would enable you to attack all home territories then the only threshold in your way would be the single neutral threshold (say +5).
With 8 different return vessels you have the neutral threshold everytime you pick a vessel and homeland...so you would have to overcome x times +5 neutral if you'd want to attack Elsforth AND Glora AND Kravash in the same turn from the single city that you own.


Capiche ?

[lostatlimbo]

If i'm right(which i'm pretty sure i am) then the danish lands cant attack each other but thier ships. And those arnt one way attack so that the ships can attack each other,england, and denmark.

This is what had me confused. Sorry.

[Industrial Helix]

Graphically, I think this is a great looking map esp. after you make the previously mentioned changes. I would consider changing the boats or tweaking them. Maybe give them some individual characteristics like different shades of brown or something. They look too much like each other.

If the cities and settlements are graphically different, why is there a need to use a s or a c?

The cities and settlements could be made a tad more clearer though.

The rivers are kind of hard to notice as well. Maybe make them and the borders a little more darker. Just enough for clarity but not to break your overall theme.

The font used on Denmark looks a little strange... I know its the same font but I find it a lot harder to read.

I like the title, but I think it could be bigger.

Gameplay wise, looks great. After reading everyone else's comments though, I'm a little confused. But going by the map's words. yeah. Sounds like fun.

Does a terr. in Denmark have access to both parts of West Wales? Seems a little unfair.

Also seems unfair that some boats land so close to a city or settlement while others don't. I migh tbe missing something though.

otherwise, looks great. I'll keep an eye on it's progress.

[el-presidente]

Here is the latest update.
I got rid of the lat.long lines, and made it more historicly accurate.
I still need to re-arrange Northumbria, but I am going away to somewhere that I won't have GIMP, so I will be doing more research, but there will be no other update untill next week.
I will think about how to do the idea of one territory for the ships returning and going out, but I like the set up now. I put in the amounts of nuturalsin for settlements and cities, but those can change.

[eigenvector]

Way to go, this looks much better.

One potential nitpick for now: are you sure that Bjourn is the correct spelling?

[captainwalrus]

Way to go, this looks much better.

One potential nitpick for now: are you sure that Bjourn is the correct spelling?

It's not. It is Bjorn without the u. I like this update, but what is the wierd thing on the end of G1 and G2? It looks like some sort of odd bug.

[shakeycat]

1. Borders and dotted lines look hand drawn, with rivers and lakes in a clearly different brush than the rest. You will have a more consistent, smooth effect if you use vectors, as well as easier changes in the long run.

2. Are there two teams of ships? Will people playing two player games, doubles, triples, quadruples be set up in either red ships or blue ships for the whole team? It's also a bit of a job to tie the ships from Denmark to England. If there were something the ships could have in common with their home province ... either a symbol (a fish for Olric, crown for Kravash), or a colour/shade, or a flag. I can just see myself misdeploying for not being able to tell my Er.I from El.I.

And yes - I see you've updated the ships to make each pair different - so you could even tie the figurehead back to the home province.

3. The title does nothing for me. I'm thinking something bolder, more interesting font, and outside of the box but still floating over Scotland. The raven is fine, but he looks squished. Like:

??

Font is from: http://www.urbanfonts.com/

Or place something in a larger box, to keep with the textbook/old-timey-map theme. But the title must be bigger and clearer!

4. The colours, texture, and theme aren't connecting for me. I get the background, as it's like an old book. But the map is smooth (computery) and pastel. The colours are as though you ran out of all the good pastels, and are using the leftovers. The only one that looks good is Denmark (because it looks like the new greenland map?), and it doesn't match the rest. Oaktown posted three maps on page 6. Something between the second and third one would be good. The third has good fonts (Lord of the Rings-ish?) and coastline. The second has a good feel - it's like an old textbook. It seems to have a crosshatch as well as a general parchment texture.

5. Why is everything in italics? I know some maps use italics for certain things - rivers, small towns .. but everything?

6. All three of the maps oaktown posted have bends in the text of the 'continents', and selectively in other places as well. Perhaps a bend would help fit the text in some cases, and simply make it different from territory names in others? It may also contribute to the overall theme. Try it, see what it looks like.


I'll keep an eye on the map. Keep it up! I like the idea.

[naxus]

1. Borders and dotted lines look hand drawn, with rivers and lakes in a clearly different brush than the rest. You will have a more consistent, smooth effect if you use vectors, as well as easier changes in the long run. The boarders will be redrawn a little more carefully, but the only place I really noticed that it looked bad were around the rivers.

2. Are there two teams of ships? Will people playing two player games, doubles, triples, quadruples be set up in either red ships or blue ships for the whole team? It's also a bit of a job to tie the ships from Denmark to England. If there were something the ships could have in common with their home province ... either a symbol (a fish for Olric, crown for Kravash), or a colour/shade, or a flag. I can just see myself misdeploying for not being able to tell my Er.I from El.I. They should be changed, I don't know why we haven't yet. I will find a beter name than 2 E names

And yes - I see you've updated the ships to make each pair different - so you could even tie the figurehead back to the home province. The names tie it back enoough, doesn't it?

3. The title does nothing for me. I'm thinking something bolder, more interesting font, and outside of the box but still floating over Scotland. The raven is fine, but he looks squished. Like:

??

Font is from: http://www.urbanfonts.com/
I really like the font, It will be worked in somewhere.
Or place something in a larger box, to keep with the textbook/old-timey-map theme. But the title must be bigger and clearer!

4. The colours, texture, and theme aren't connecting for me. I get the background, as it's like an old book. But the map is smooth (computery) and pastel. The colours are as though you ran out of all the good pastels, and are using the leftovers. The only one that looks good is Denmark (because it looks like the new greenland map?), and it doesn't match the rest. Oaktown posted three maps on page 6. Something between the second and third one would be good. The third has good fonts (Lord of the Rings-ish?) and coastline. The second has a good feel - it's like an old textbook. It seems to have a crosshatch as well as a general parchment texture.
I sort of disagree. If you look at old maps, You see the pattern of a color and a darker version of that color on the outside a lot. I like it, bt if enough people don't, It will be changed. the font though, I argee does not look very old.
5. Why is everything in italics? I know some maps use italics for certain things - rivers, small towns .. but everything?
Dunno, We haven't put much thought into the font yet.
6. All three of the maps oaktown posted have bends in the text of the 'continents', and selectively in other places as well. Perhaps a bend would help fit the text in some cases, and simply make it different from territory names in others? It may also contribute to the overall theme. Try it, see what it looks like.


I'll keep an eye on the map. Keep it up! I like the idea.

[el-presidente]

I'll work on the edit once I get back to my home computer, but is the update more accurate? Is Wales right? Are the names better?

[naxus]

Better font, and better impassibles.


We played around with the boarders in Northumbria, they are now thin and dotted. Does anyone like it?

[Danyael]

very nice looking impassables with those looking so much better
and the removal of the atlas lines improves the map alot

i like the look of the dotted border
if you do all borders like that are you just going to do it to the inner region borders or all borders ?

[pikkio]

i'm sorry but i can't read all the discussion, so please excuse me if i will say something that you had jet decided about.

i speak only for graphic, cause i'm not very expert in gameplay.

i think that the map will look better if you make more bold the outer borders and maybe add some light blue effect near the coasts (try something like a glow, or made some orizzontal lines, maybe with a large spray effect, or something else that you think can be good).

some territories names touch the borders and it not look good, expecially if they have the same colour. try to incline it or change the colour of the words. in particular, try to make the country names in a dark version of the country colour, to distinguish it from the other words and to indentify the name of the country more clearly.

at the same, if it's possible, i think that the ships will pop better and looks more nice if you mark the outer lines (try with black/dark gray, but also a dark brown may works well).

by the way, i think this is a good map and the gameplay seems interesting, keep on working right now! ^_^