*[Abandoned] Feudal England and Wales

[The Bison King]

Question to Oneyed, When you asked me to combine the 4 small Eastern bonuses earlier was that arbitrary or was that because those regions were combined under Norman rule?

[Oneyed]

Question to Oneyed, When you asked me to combine the 4 small Eastern bonuses earlier was that arbitrary or was that because those regions were combined under Norman rule?

both is right. I did not know from which era you will do the map. the true is that not only Normans united land, but after fall of Kent, South Saxe and Middle Saxe kingdoms the Heptarchy was past. in England were then 4 anglo saxon kingdoms - West Saxe, East Angle, Mercia and Northumbria.

and I think also from gameplay view is better to combine small bonuses... but as I wrote it was my opinion before you made decision to go with Heptarchy.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

I a sense, I agree with oneyed on this, having 4 small bonuses in the south means that anyone who drops there in small games has one the game. The Normans had more than the 4 small bonuses but this will need to be addressed. Try and find a way to split Wales and the North into 2 to balance the north out a bit.

[The Bison King]

Question to Oneyed, When you asked me to combine the 4 small Eastern bonuses earlier was that arbitrary or was that because those regions were combined under Norman rule?

both is right. I did not know from which era you will do the map. the true is that not only Normans united land, but after fall of Kent, South Saxe and Middle Saxe kingdoms the Heptarchy was past. in England were then 4 anglo saxon kingdoms - West Saxe, East Angle, Mercia and Northumbria.

and I think also from gameplay view is better to combine small bonuses... but as I wrote it was my opinion before you made decision to go with Heptarchy.

Oneyed

Right but if it means that I'll have to change all those other things in your above post I think I'd rather just combine the bonuses and move on.

Here's how it breaks down if I stick with the Heptarchy:

- names of regions must be changed. you have much of them modern. maybe you should go with anglo saxon names.

A lot of the names are going to have to change any way so this is a moot point.

- maybe use "capitals" better as castles

I'd MUCH rather use castles, because they are way cooler. In fact the one of the biggest reasons I started this project was because I wanted to do a map with castles.
Again I know they had castles in this time, but they were made out of wood for the most part so they may be "permissible"

- Wales was not unitied in these times

It really doesn't matter much to me if it was united or not, but it might make more sense if it was.

- Cornwall was not part of Wessex yet

I'd like to make Cornwall it's own bonus but it's just not big enough.

- Cumbria was not part of Northumbria

Same situation it's just not big enough. Also if I add Cornwall and Cumbria we're looking at 10 bonuses not 8 and that's more than I want.


So as you see it probably just makes more sense to combine East Anglia with East Saxons, and Kent with South Saxons and just do the whole Norman era instead. Which is kind of a bummer because I wanted to use those coats of arms on the final graphics. So a follow up question I would have for you is if I combine those regions what would I call them and what could I use as their coat of arms?

[The Bison King]

I a sense, I agree with oneyed on this, having 4 small bonuses in the south means that anyone who drops there in small games has one the game. The Normans had more than the 4 small bonuses but this will need to be addressed. Try and find a way to split Wales and the North into 2 to balance the north out a bit.

No, bonus size has no impact on bonus value with the current bonus structure aside for an extra +2 auto deploy. The only difference is an increase in competition for those regions which makes them worse.

[koontz1973]

But in a small game, if I drop more in the south and you in the north, will I not be able to get and protect my bonuses easier than you in the north? And once I have them secure, I can easily break yours?

[The Bison King]

But in a small game, if I drop more in the south and you in the north, will I not be able to get and protect my bonuses easier than you in the north? And once I have them secure, I can easily break yours?

There's no "breaking bonuses" in the traditional sense. You either have to eat up all their fields or break their castles. Since all bonuses play by the same rules 10 territories in Mercia get's you +5 while 10 territories split between the 4 south east bonuses get's you the same, maybe less depending on how it's split up.

[koontz1973]

But in the south, you have 4 castles close by all giving a +2 auto deploy. So on top of the bonuses, you have the +2s. In the north, you can only get two of these types of bonuses.

[The Bison King]

Yes but there are more castles in the north than in the south. there's only 4 in the small bonuses while there's 8 in the large ones.

and really it's more of an East/West thing than it is a North/South thing.

[Oneyed]

Right but if it means that I'll have to change all those other things in your above post I think I'd rather just combine the bonuses and move on.

why you "must" go with Heptarchy or AngloSaxon England? with all problems about dividing England? why you can not go with later Englad? also one notice - Heptarchy/AngloSaxon England is rather Dark Age, when people hear Medieval Britain they imagine later England, I think.

I'd MUCH rather use castles, because they are way cooler. In fact the one of the biggest reasons I started this project was because I wanted to do a map with castles.
Again I know they had castles in this time, but they were made out of wood for the most part so they may be "permissible"

later England will also nice solve this thing... . and you have some castles/centres of power bad. for example Durham change to Bambourgh, Windsor change to Winchester, Dover to Cantenbury...

It really doesn't matter much to me if it was united or not, but it might make more sense if it was.

no it was not united and was divided more as England. so think about this.

I'd like to make Cornwall it's own bonus but it's just not big enough.

maybe do it as part of south Wales bonus.

Same situation it's just not big enough. Also if I add Cornwall and Cumbria we're looking at 10 bonuses not 8 and that's more than I want.

and Cumbria part of north Wales.

So as you see it probably just makes more sense to combine East Anglia with East Saxons, and Kent with South Saxons and just do the whole Norman era instead. Which is kind of a bummer because I wanted to use those coats of arms on the final graphics. So a follow up question I would have for you is if I combine those regions what would I call them and what could I use as their coat of arms?

these coat of arms are quite off reality.

Oneyed

[The Bison King]

why you "must" go with Heptarchy or AngloSaxon England? with all problems about dividing England? why you can not go with later Englad? also one notice - Heptarchy/AngloSaxon England is rather Dark Age, when people hear Medieval Britain they imagine later England, I think.

You've completely missed the point of my post. I'm saying that I AM going to bump the timeline forward and model this off of England at a later date.

these coat of arms are quite off reality.

What does this mean?

[Oneyed]

You've completely missed the point of my post.

as I said, I have sometimes problem to explain my ideas in English. and also sometimes to undersand in English

I'm saying that I AM going to bump the timeline forward and model this off of England at a later date.

looks as good decision

What does this mean?

Northumbria has another one, and for Wessex is better wyvern. but if you will go with later England they are off theme.

Oneyed

[Neato Missile]

Change the name to Indeterminate Era Britain, then turn one of the castles into a dinosaur and another one into a spaceship.

*inditierminate

[AndyDufresne]

Change the name to Indeterminate Era Britain, then turn one of the castles into a dinosaur and another one into a spaceship.

*inditierminate

I'd like to see a map with a dinosaur and spaceship on it.


--Andy

[guttorm]

Norman times would be great.. it is what most people think about when it comes to great castles.

The preceding "anglo-saxon" centuries were politically weak times and the Danes controlled much of England - sometimes all of it. Such a map should include more than Britain imo and require a lot more research than the famous classic Norman theme.

[nolefan5311]

Change the name to Indeterminate Era Britain, then turn one of the castles into a dinosaur and another one into a spaceship.

*inditierminate

[koontz1973]

TBK, I know we have talked about this but just wanted to quote nobodies on the issue of size. This was his post in kabs map (Age of Buccaneers).

Sorry for the delay mate.
For the size of the map it's better if you can stay within the guidelines if possible, if you can't please use every extra pixel in a thoughtful manner!
Even if for the large I'm not asking to stay within strict limits, for the small I kindly ask to you to produce the smaller map you can produce. More smaller, more closer to the 630x600, better it is.
If you need you can make them different (same gameplay, I mean just simpler graphics to fit everything)

Nobodies

As I said, we will see what happens later.

[The Bison King]

TBK, I know we have talked about this but just wanted to quote nobodies on the issue of size. This was his post in kabs map (Age of Buccaneers).

Sorry for the delay mate.
For the size of the map it's better if you can stay within the guidelines if possible, if you can't please use every extra pixel in a thoughtful manner!
Even if for the large I'm not asking to stay within strict limits, for the small I kindly ask to you to produce the smaller map you can produce. More smaller, more closer to the 630x600, better it is.
If you need you can make them different (same gameplay, I mean just simpler graphics to fit everything)

Nobodies

As I said, we will see what happens later.

I agree that the small should be as possible as it can possibly be, and to do this I've maximized space as much as possible. By moving the map to the right I can stretch it out as much as possible and have maximized my Legend space to the left. Even still I can't shrink it down much past 880x838. I could probably get it down to 840x800 If I enlarge certain territories, though the words will have to be pretty small. It seems fair that a small super-sized can be the size of the large on a regular. It's not like I'd be presenting anything larger than what most players are already used to.

Click image to enlarge.

Also I combined the lower Eastern bonuses on this version. The colors suck right now but I just whipped this out to give you something to look at, that'll all be re-done later.

[Oneyed]

what does this has to do with medieval? except castles?

Oneyed

[The Bison King]

what does this has to do with medieval? except castles?

Oneyed

what are you talking about? Why are you asking this now? You are the one who told me to combine bonuses.

[Oneyed]

what are you talking about?

I still think you have much regions which were created and named later as your time era.
there is nothing about medieval. as I said, just castles. why you have not there County palatinates for example?
Wales is totaly off historic reality. it needs more centres of power...
London should has any extra role - it was seat of Kings...

Why are you asking this now? You are the one who told me to combine bonuses.

yes, because balancing gameplay and also because you left Anglo Saxon theme.

Oneyed

[The Bison King]

what are you talking about?

I still think you have much regions which were created and named later as your time era.
there is nothing about medieval. as I said, just castles. why you have not there County palatinates for example?
Wales is totaly off historic reality. it needs more centres of power...
London should has any extra role - it was seat of Kings...

Why are you asking this now? You are the one who told me to combine bonuses.

yes, because balancing gameplay and also because you left Anglo Saxon theme.

Oneyed

I know but you've been commenting on this map since it's creation, and you just now make a comment on it saying "how is this medieval?" like you just looked at it for the first time???? If you have idea's on how to make it more "medieval" please clue me in. How can I make Wales more historically accurate? What extra role should I give London? That's what's actually going to help me make this map! I've been asking for new territory names since you made that comment the first time. I'd love to hear them.

[Oneyed]

I´ve look at history of Norman conquest of England and here are some finds.

on this map you can see shires, you can see County Palatinates (yellow regions) - these were ruled by Marcher lords to secure west and north borders. the black squares are castles - represent the Earldoms established during 1066 AD to 1135 AD, the reign of House of Normandy. the red square is London.

lets make map from Normans view. Wales is not ruled by Normans for longer time. only later become treaty which area of Wales is under Normans and which is Welsh. therefore there are 3 castles in Wales - Normans earldoms in Wales.

Click image to enlarge.

gameplay? lets see your opinion on this map

Oneyed

[The Bison King]

Ok now we're talking! This is something to digest.

I've given it a little time and here's what I've thought of. Withing the already delineated regions we assign an even greater region which encompass everything except Wales, Cornwall, and parts of North Cumberland , that is referred to as "The King's Dominion". So long as someone holds the territory "London" he receives a +1 bonus for ANY 2 REGIONS held ANYWHERE within "the Kings Dominion".

[Oneyed]

So long as someone holds the territory "London" he receives a +1 bonus for ANY 2 REGIONS held ANYWHERE within "the Kings Dominion".

there will be only one bonus, if I good understand... not the best opinion.

I´ve moved time to 1139/1140 AD - it was start of civil war, but to this time it was about Normans conquering the land, establishing their reign...

Click image to enlarge.

red square: London, capital, can bombard any castle? -1 with each Marcher lordship?
black squares: castles +1 auto (inside not coloured area (this depends if there will be enough space for numbers and names)
not coloured areas: shires, together with castle inside makes Earldom, +1 for each/ +1 for each two?
red areas: shires under Kings control, +1 for each two/three with London
yellow areas: shires/Marcher lordships, +2 for each together with castle inside? (Marcher lords were more powerfull and independent as other lords)
green areas: Wales, +3 for Wales? OR forgot Wales and make only this bonus - Marcher lordship with castle inside +1, +1 for each two regions in Wales (Marcher lords often attacked Welsh areas and were independent in politics with Wales)
blue: rivers, impassable (there should be any mountains in Wales or on the border between Wales and Marcher lordships.

little complex, but I only wrote all possibilities which I see... and have on mind - this era was not easy and simple with all relations...

Oneyed