Conquer Club

Accused:

• meathead

The accused is suspected of:

• Other: Using an exploit/bug to get an advantage in a freestyle game.

Game number:

• Game 2348827

Comments:
meathead clearly cheated the freestyle system here. He took his turn last in the round and then waited to run out of time. The next round started and he could take his turn right away - thus taking two turns in a row which is against the freestyle rules

Take a look at the game log:

...
2008-05-05 04:45:35 - meathead attacked ? from ? and conquered it from Metalmesh
2008-05-05 05:08:51 - meathead ran out of time
2008-05-05 05:08:51 - Incrementing game to round 8
2008-05-05 05:09:16 - meathead gets bonus of 5 armies added to ?
2008-05-05 05:09:16 - meathead gets bonus of 5 armies added to ?
...

In the description of a freestyle game it says:

After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

Now, I've heard of cases of abuse like like this but I've never seen or followed a specific case, so what happens now? I requset that meathead and their partner should forfeit this game for cheating the rules of a freestyle game.

Since this was done in a Feudal War game and meathead took our castles in the turn that they waited to run out of time, they imediately got the bonuses for our castles and everything else they took the previous turn. Thus not giving me and my partner a chance to respond to the attacks of meathead and allowing them to take more of our territories.

It sucks, but it is "within the rules". I'd recommend putting them on your foe list, and possibly leaving feedback.

How is that "within the rules??!!!" This is not the rule?:

After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

From: http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=instructions3

"Play Order In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

did a little searching and i'm not pleased with what i've found. So, this is from a thread about Freestyle changes but Ididn't read into it much but i did find this:

And just to clarify, anti-double-turn block is only meant to prevent "surprise" double turns when the round ends before the 24 hours are up. Any other sort of double turn (e.g. when someone didn't play or ran out of time) is allowed because everyone knows when the turn expires and it isn't a surprise.

Well, I would say that it still can be a surprize. What if the round ends at 3 in the morning (or some other early or rediculus time) for one game (people playing each other across the world)? Do you suspect that people would get up at that rediculus hour just to check and see if someone is going? (or the other team in a doubles freestyle game?). I think someone should be able to sleep well (not having to get up at some early hour) knowing that your oponents (in this case of a doubles freestyle game) can't take double turns.

Fireside Poet wrote:From: http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=instructions3

"Play Order In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

FP, did you notice in the game log that I posted? They started right after the round started. Half of the round didn't pass by.

cramill, yes I checked it out and from my understanding, after 12 hours (half the round) has been completed in a freestyle game with the opposing team not having gone yet, the "lock out" for going first the next round is removed. I understand where you are coming from as I normally don't play freestyle and had to get clarification myself.

Fireside Poet wrote:cramill, yes I checked it out and from my understanding, after 12 hours (half the round) has been completed in a freestyle game with the opposing team not having gone yet, the "lock out" for going first the next round is removed. I understand where you are coming from as I normally don't play freestyle and had to get clarification myself.

Dude, half the round did not pass in this case.

Fireside Poet wrote:cramill, yes I checked it out and from my understanding, after 12 hours (half the round) has been completed in a freestyle game with the opposing team not having gone yet, the "lock out" for going first the next round is removed. I understand where you are coming from as I normally don't play freestyle and had to get clarification myself.

You sure about that??? Doesn't make any sense at all IMO.

And also even if that somehow is how the rule is supposed to work it doesn't apply here as team 2 had completed their turns within the first 12 hours.

I have resorted to higher authorities in this one. Pending status now applied. Thanks for the persistence cramill.

I think you will find that double turning is perfectly in the rules, I have not hacked or abused anything. It may be a devious tactic but its all part of freestyle, if you dont like it then stick to sequential.

meathead wrote:I think you will find that double turning is perfectly in the rules, I have not hacked or abused anything. It may be a devious tactic but its all part of freestyle, if you dont like it then stick to sequential.

I understand the "not take a turn and then go first" style that some uses to get their deferred armies. But this? You took your turn and hence should be prohibited from going first, the fact that you timed out shouldn't factor in IMO.

Note that I'm not saying that you did something illegal, just that it should be illegal to do what you did.

I can say with honour that I do that on No Cards game all the time. As does 99% of the whole CC community. It is NOT cheating. He did not end his round so he could block you from getting your bonus. That's freestyle my friend. If you cannot handle it please play sequential. What if all players do this, should they all be blocked from starting the next round?

BladiN wrote:I can say with honour that I do that on No Cards game all the time. As does 99% of the whole CC community. It is NOT cheating. He did not end his round so he could block you from getting your bonus. That's freestyle my friend. If you cannot handle it please play sequential. What if all players do this, should they all be blocked from starting the next round?

Psh, 99%? thats a rediculus made up statistic. I think its a lame tactic and it should not be allowed. Why do you have to bend the rules to win a game?

cramill wrote:

BladiN wrote:I can say with honour that I do that on No Cards game all the time. As does 99% of the whole CC community. It is NOT cheating. He did not end his round so he could block you from getting your bonus. That's freestyle my friend. If you cannot handle it please play sequential. What if all players do this, should they all be blocked from starting the next round?

Psh, 99%? thats a rediculus made up statistic. I think its a lame tactic and it should not be allowed. Why do you have to bend the rules to win a game?

Ok, 99% of the good players will use that tactic, not just on feudal, but any map. You should play some 5 minute freestyle games on feudal. In almost all the 5min FS feudal games I play this tactic is used by either myself or my opponant. Maybe you should try it?

Any exploit of the game mechanics to gain an advantage shouldn't be allowed. Just because you're able to do it, doesn't mean you should. That was everyone's excuse with the defacto-double turn that people were using to lock others out of their turn and Freestyle was eventually adjusted to not allow that type of behavior.

I did not block them from having a turn though, they took their turns quickly and I waited until the end of my turn. I could have gotten the same effect from ending my turn, then waiting for 24hrs hitting refresh every 5 seconds so that as soon as one of them started, so could I, the net effect would be the same, it just takes less time.

meathead wrote:I did not block them from having a turn though, they took their turns quickly and I waited until the end of my turn. I could have gotten the same effect from ending my turn, then waiting for 24hrs hitting refresh every 5 seconds so that as soon as one of them started, so could I, the net effect would be the same, it just takes less time.

I don't think that is the same. Making it so you can take double turns is not the same as waiting around for the other team (or player) to take their turn then start when you see them start because in the second case (the only case there should be) the team who is not blocked from taking a double turn gets the bonuses they deserve after their opponents went. While in the double turn case, the team that takes the double turn gets a chance to whittle down their opponents even more, taking away deserved bonuses and creating an unfair advantage.

meathead wrote:I did not block them from having a turn though, they took their turns quickly and I waited until the end of my turn. I could have gotten the same effect from ending my turn, then waiting for 24hrs hitting refresh every 5 seconds so that as soon as one of them started, so could I, the net effect would be the same, it just takes less time.

what you did is called an exploit. you're taking advantage of a system in a way that's it not meant to be used. you can argue who does it or who doesn't, but in the end, the rules state that the player who ends the turn (which you did) cannot be the first to play the next turn (which you also did) unless half the time passes (which it didnt) or another player plays their turn (which nobody did). it goes against the rules but is not cheating.

this is a definite issue mods. needs to be fixed. simply make it so that regardless of HOW a person ends their round they cannot start the next.

Don't think this qualifies as cheating. There was a glitch that they exploited. Simple strategy. The only thing that should be done is fix the glitch.

cramill wrote:

meathead wrote:I did not block them from having a turn though, they took their turns quickly and I waited until the end of my turn. I could have gotten the same effect from ending my turn, then waiting for 24hrs hitting refresh every 5 seconds so that as soon as one of them started, so could I, the net effect would be the same, it just takes less time.

I don't think that is the same. Making it so you can take double turns is not the same as waiting around for the other team (or player) to take their turn then start when you see them start because in the second case (the only case there should be) the team who is not blocked from taking a double turn gets the bonuses they deserve after their opponents went. While in the double turn case, the team that takes the double turn gets a chance to whittle down their opponents even more, taking away deserved bonuses and creating an unfair advantage.

Either way you would not get your bonus, because in my 1st turn I took it away from you.

I have lost freestyle games because my opponant has a faster server connection than me, so can start his turn ultra fast, take a load of my territories and I dont get my bonus, is that cheating too?

Mine and Rugbylovers challenge of a sequential game still stands if you wish to participate.

Ok Cramill, 99% just says that a lot do it, don't take things literally will you?

Also, it's not exploiting anything. If I DO end I just press refresh until I can start, same effect. I hardly ever play before the other played, people just don't want to lose bonuses. Waiting saves you from pressing the refresh button for 2,5 minutes. THat's all it does. Capice? You're not bending any rule.

meathead wrote:I have lost freestyle games because my opponant has a faster server connection than me, so can start his turn ultra fast, take a load of my territories and I dont get my bonus, is that cheating too?

You didn't make this situation very clear - are you saying that your opponent waited for you to start your turn (you get your bonus for that turn) then they take their turn faster than you so they still get their bonus without you having the chance to break them? and then they break you so you don't get your bonus next turn? - In that case it is not cheating. Every one had their fair shot - no double turns.

BladiN wrote:Ok Cramill, 99% just says that a lot do it, don't take things literally will you?

Also, it's not exploiting anything. If I DO end I just press refresh until I can start, same effect. I hardly ever play before the other played, people just don't want to lose bonuses. Waiting saves you from pressing the refresh button for 2,5 minutes. THat's all it does. Capice? You're not bending any rule.

Its not the same effect as waiting for them to start. It is the same as if they didn't take their turn before half of the round passes, though. In my case that I'm complaining about, half of the round did not pass and meathead and his partner took double turns which should not be allowed.

Seriuosly, stick to sequential!