Conquer Club

Accused: josko.ri

The accused are suspected of: Other: Manipulating Score

Game number(s):
Game 13900094
Game 13900095
Game 13900182
And other recent games.

Comments: I don't see his score manipulation as inherently different from what TheCrown did. He was already conqueror and pushed his high score up as high as possible before losing many games in succession. It's basically just the reverse order of the way that this went down. Essentially, josko held himself hostage. He's dropped 2000 points in the last week because of this.

My feelings are that I don't have anything against either situation. I think this is the way the scoreboard is set up. I'm fine with it. But, if TheCrown is getting punished for his attempt at scoreboard manipulation with collusion, then I don't see why josko wouldn't get the same thing. Again, nothing against you josko, I'm more calling out the system here and looking for fairness.

So josko's should get his points back? doing what he did, he probably lost 400-600 point..

He is the only Conqueror I ever encountered that plays any rank. Frivolous report.

Kingm wrote:So josko's should get his points back? doing what he did, he probably lost 400-600 point..

Yes, give him points back!

I don't know the answer, but I feel like it's silly to punish TheCrown for the same thing and not look at this.

GeneralRisk wrote:He is the only Conqueror I ever encountered that plays any rank. Frivolous report.

Nicest conqueror ever, OMG! He must just get a pass then and no one question anything!!

It's not frivolous. As stated earlier, I'm not necessarily looking for badness against josko here, but I think things should be fair. Either overturn TheCrown's ruling or do something here. I don't know what you would do as punishment, that's not up to me. I'm just saying these two players' situations aren't equitable at the moment.

josko can play his games as fast or slow as he wants. His score will rise for a bit, but will fall again when those games do finish up... who cares.

Why's it different from thecrown's case? Because josko's not colluding with other players, asking them to play slower / faster. It's not the same thing at all in my eyes.

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chapcrap wrote:

Kingm wrote:So josko's should get his points back? doing what he did, he probably lost 400-600 point..

Yes, give him points back!

I don't know the answer, but I feel like it's silly to punish TheCrown for the same thing and not look at this.

GeneralRisk wrote:He is the only Conqueror I ever encountered that plays any rank. Frivolous report.

Nicest conqueror ever, OMG! He must just get a pass then and no one question anything!!

It's not frivolous. As stated earlier, I'm not necessarily looking for badness against josko here, but I think things should be fair. Either overturn TheCrown's ruling or do something here. I don't know what you would do as punishment, that's not up to me. I'm just saying these two players' situations aren't equitable at the moment.

It seems as though your main goal is to have mods overturn the ruling against TheCrown, in which case, this is a frivolous report, and you should probably get a warning for making it. You don't make a report simply to affect the outcome of another (past) case.

Swifte wrote:josko can play his games as fast or slow as he wants. His score will rise for a bit, but will fall again when those games do finish up... who cares.

Why's it different from thecrown's case? Because josko's not colluding with other players, asking them to play slower / faster. It's not the same thing at all in my eyes.

Well, it looked like he was colluding Game 13900182, Game 13900095, and Game 13900094. Why else is Moonchild taking turns so slowly? I stole this information from another thread.

The Voice wrote:

chapcrap wrote:

Kingm wrote:So josko's should get his points back? doing what he did, he probably lost 400-600 point..

Yes, give him points back!

I don't know the answer, but I feel like it's silly to punish TheCrown for the same thing and not look at this.

GeneralRisk wrote:He is the only Conqueror I ever encountered that plays any rank. Frivolous report.

Nicest conqueror ever, OMG! He must just get a pass then and no one question anything!!

It's not frivolous. As stated earlier, I'm not necessarily looking for badness against josko here, but I think things should be fair. Either overturn TheCrown's ruling or do something here. I don't know what you would do as punishment, that's not up to me. I'm just saying these two players' situations aren't equitable at the moment.

It seems as though your main goal is to have mods overturn the ruling against TheCrown, in which case, this is a frivolous report, and you should probably be warned for making it. You don't make a report to affect the outcome of another (past) case. Also, you're comparing apples to oranges, as others have previously said.

That's not my main goal. Sorry if I wasn't clear when I asserted that fairness is the goal.

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chapcrap wrote:

Swifte wrote:josko can play his games as fast or slow as he wants. His score will rise for a bit, but will fall again when those games do finish up... who cares.

Why's it different from thecrown's case? Because josko's not colluding with other players, asking them to play slower / faster. It's not the same thing at all in my eyes.

Well, it looked like he was colluding Game 13900182, Game 13900095, and Game 13900094. Why else is Moonchild taking turns so slowly? I stole this information from another thread.

ok.. that's different from what your first post says. your accusation in the OP is that josko was playing as slow as he could. If others are helping him manipulate it.. then this is a problem.

We have to decipher what this is. Is it scoreboard manipulation, or is it something more. Another thing to consider is it a road we want to keep open? My opinion is josko.ri has done nothing wrong here. He played all of his turns within the allotted time constraints. He did play all his winning games very fast, and all his losing games very slow. I played many of those games and at no point did he ask me to play slower. He did ask me if I wanted to plat RT in the games he was winning, which I see no problem in. I believe this report has no place here but maybe in the suggestion forums. My worries are simple, if I really wanted to I could manipulate the scoreboard, get my conqueror medal, and then go back down the board. I would simply do the exact same thing that josko.ri did. Is this an accepted process as far as rules, I think so. Is this an accepted practice as far as respect from other players, not at all. If I get there, I don't want to instantly have a report such as this. Josko.ri is best player on CC, so let him be.

chapcrap wrote:

Swifte wrote:josko can play his games as fast or slow as he wants. His score will rise for a bit, but will fall again when those games do finish up... who cares.

Why's it different from thecrown's case? Because josko's not colluding with other players, asking them to play slower / faster. It's not the same thing at all in my eyes.

Well, it looked like he was colluding Game 13900182, Game 13900095, and Game 13900094. Why else is Moonchild taking turns so slowly? I stole this information from another thread.

Taking turns slowly is not against the rules. Deliberately not ending the game while you could in a round is against the rules. And just because it "looks" like collusion, I think you would need some evidence to support your accusation.

Those are my initial thoughts.

Great-Ollie wrote:I played many of those games and at no point did he ask me to play slower.

And this was also practice with every other player including Moonchild. I let every player do their turns as slow/fast as they want. If Moonchild or anyone else chose to play his turns slower it is his free choice.
If I know that my friend is going for his high score, I would also slow down my turn. For example I did it in this game by playing 20 hours in last turn:

Game 13144144
2013-09-13 12:11:54 - universalchiro: wait as long as you can before taking turn. I'm enjoying 2nd place

So did in your opinion universalchiro also abused rules because he asked me to play my turn as longer as possible because he is enjoying his 2nd place?

Once again to repeat, I did not make agreement with any player that they slow their turns. If someone did, it is only their own choice of using their own time.

Also, core difference between what TheCrown did and what I did is strategy related. He sabotaged strategy and I did not. If your opponent has 1 region left and you either miss turn or deploy but purposedly do not kill him, then strategy is sabotaged because he purposedly did not end games which he could end. Different than him, I was always doing my the best strategic move which I could manage, both in winning and in losing games.

Another big difference is that because of TheCrown's method every player lost 1 place on scoreboard and this is HUGE influence to every other CC player. If I was hard fighting to be #1, then it is unfair that because of his method I become #2. With what I did, nobody lost their hardly deserved place on scoreboard.

I had also checked with king achilles whether doing this is against rules or not before I started to do that. Reply was basically that if I miss any turn while doing that then this will be abuse because I had time to play other turns during 24 hours but chose to not play that one. Apparently, I had no missed turns. All what I did was using my own time smart in order to achieve the highest personal score.

this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

Swifte wrote:josko can play his games as fast or slow as he wants. His score will rise for a bit, but will fall again when those games do finish up... who cares.

Why's it different from thecrown's case? Because josko's not colluding with other players, asking them to play slower / faster. It's not the same thing at all in my eyes.

This.

betiko wrote:this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

This too.

And it costs manhours to correct peoples bad behaviour hours not spent on fixing lag or other stuff... which is bad!

Interesting. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'll go ahead and say to start I don't know where I stand on how I feel about "the system" in general.

I know everyone always jokes that chap and I are the same person, but I'll reference this post as future proof to the contrary.

I disagree with the OP.

Crown knows I like / respect him. I think it was brilliant on his part what he did and pretty fun/funny, and definitely took a lot of work on his part. But he en masse enlisted his clan mates, and had them alter their turn taking timing etc. then, held them hostage (although they were agreeable, some of these games went far more round then they naturally should have).

In contrast, josko played many games against quality players, took his turns and altered the timing of HIS turns and allowed his opponents / teammates to play as usual, and while some of them may have delayed their turns for him, it was not en masse / collusion with his entire clan, and I haven't seen any games that were naturally extended their ROUNDS, played within the allowable 24 hours.

Just my thoughts but I don't say the two actions as equitable.

betiko wrote:this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

I tend to agree with you mate. We signed up a new player a couple of weeks ago. He's been around for ages but has just started getting active again fairly recently. Yesterday he's dumped hundreds of points by deadbeating speeders and has been guested. Funny how it's the end of the month

As for Josko, I can't see that he's done anything wrong at all.

This is totally different from what The Crown did. Josko was already top of the scoreboard and didn't hold anyone hostage like The Crown did in order to achieve a personal high score.

Isn't it worse to hold off your losses (josko) than your wins (TheCrown)? Those who are about to win a game want the points they are going to get. Seems that the phrase of "taking hostage" (which as been used so much in these cases) applies to this scenario even more than TheCrown one.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

hyposquasher wrote:Isn't it worse to hold off your losses (josko) than your wins (TheCrown)? Those who are about to win a game want the points they are going to get. Seems that the phrase of "taking hostage" (which as been used so much in these cases) applies to this scenario even more than TheCrown one.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Playing turns within the allowed 24 hours in any way IS NOT holding hostage. Whoever joins 24 hour game should be aware that opponent's turns may last 24 hours. Purposedly do not win a game which you can win in only one round (opponent has 1 region, and you just deploy and end turn) IS holding hostage so what I did and what he did in any way cannot bethe same because I did not hold hostage.

Holding hostage is when you do not end the game on purpose. this was put into place years ago as a premium member did not end the game over a non premium member out of spite so the non premium member could not start a new game. I will keep his name nameless. So if he is moving within 24 hours and attacking his opponent and not just deploying, than he is fine. I dint look at the games in question.

Whether this is abuse or not, I'm not particularly bothered, but the system is flawed. I think everyone can agree on that.

Funny,
I played some games vs Josko while he was getting higher in points , so I can say some things for the matter.

Just for the record, Josko played his best in all of his moves in both winning and losing games and never asked me to delay any game. He has the right to take his turn at any time during the 24h and that's what he did. He was trying to win from the start till the end , even if he was losing the game...
Can someone say why is this cheating? If yes, then he should accused himself as well because i am sure that he has done the same

trevor33 wrote:This is totally different from what The Crown did. Josko was already top of the scoreboard and didn't hold anyone hostage like The Crown did in order to achieve a personal high score.

Another big difference is that because of TheCrown's method every player lost 1 place on scoreboard and this is HUGE influence to every other CC player. If I was hard fighting to be #1, then it is unfair that because of his method I become #2. With what I did, nobody lost their hardly deserved place on scoreboard.

I have no idea if Josko is guilty or not, but his rank should not influence the answer to the question.
If something is reprehensible, being 1st doesn't make it acceptable, and should not.



Now, did they both, The Crown and Josko.ri manipulate the scoreboard? Seems yes.
But Josko.ri did it without breaking any rules, while The Crown obviously crossed the line.
I don't think TheCrown has been punished for delaying game, and Josko should not be punish for that either.

From TheCrown C and A report :

After all things said and done in this report, and after gathering all the facts, we have come to this verdict: "Colluding with other players to artificially manipulate the scoring system" is still against the rules. To do this repeatedly is Gross Abuse of the Game. The following has been done to the accused:

Disqualified him from the Monthly Scoreboard Prizes
Disqualified him from the Conquer Medal
Issued a warning for a Major/Severe Infraction (Gross Abuse of the Game)
Reduction of his score back to 2866 (basing this from Game 13596571 where it most likely began).

To any of you who may have plans to do any kind of similar schemes, save yourself from future disciplinary actions and just play the game. We are all here to have fun and enjoy the games. If you want to be recognized, make sure people will see you positively for it and it was honestly done. Don't do things that you might regret afterwards.

I'll keep this report locked. If any of you wish to further discuss about this report, feel free to open a thread in the General Discussions forum.

Unless the collusion with other players can be proved, regarding OP comment on the fairness between the both situation, it seems it is fair that TheCrown was punished and Josko.ri not.