Conquer Club

To the powers that be: The forum guidelines specifically state that bigotry and discriminatory language on the basis of creed, race, gender, etc. is verboten. This jerk, Gerazan, has been posting stuff over the last couple weeks that is completely out of line and well beyond what I'm guessing the administration of this site wants the forums to be. He's a homophobic, muslim-bashing hatemonger, and it seems to me that, based on the rules here, he has no place posting in the forums on this site.

see the recent threads in flame wars on Islamic Terrorist Groups and the media ignoring black on white crime as well as the recent social lounge II thread on Ann Coulter using the 'F' word.

bump

Lmao Neph, that's funny. I don't like bigots, but isn't that what flamewars is for?

yeah, I understand that Flame Wars is meant to be a place for people to say whatever offensive stuff they want and to attack each other without hesitation or remorse, but it has been my understanding during my brief time as a CC member that Flame Wars was principally intended to be a place for people to attack each other, not entire groups of people. This guy has basically been using his posts just to promote racist, homophobic, and anti-muslim sentiments. From my reading of the guidelines before I started posting in these forums, it was my understanding that that sort of thing (along with porn) were basically the only things not allowed. If I'm wrong, whatever, I'm certainly capable of ignoring this dickhead. I just thought that the mods should be aware of the pattern this guy has developed. I know they monitor the forums, so they're probably already aware. I assume that the lack of response to his behavior thus far is tacit permission for him to say the things he's said, so fair enough. Mods?

Colossus wrote:yeah, I understand that Flame Wars is meant to be a place for people to say whatever offensive stuff they want and to attack each other without hesitation or remorse, but it has been my understanding during my brief time as a CC member that Flame Wars was principally intended to be a place for people to attack each other, not entire groups of people. This guy has basically been using his posts just to promote racist, homophobic, and anti-muslim sentiments. From my reading of the guidelines before I started posting in these forums, it was my understanding that that sort of thing (along with porn) were basically the only things not allowed. If I'm wrong, whatever, I'm certainly capable of ignoring this dickhead. I just thought that the mods should be aware of the pattern this guy has developed. I know they monitor the forums, so they're probably already aware. I assume that the lack of response to his behavior thus far is tacit permission for him to say the things he's said, so fair enough. Mods?

Well, I thought bigotry goes something like this:

Bigotry: The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

While I feel that Gerzan's posts are tasteless, at best, I'm not sure he's a bigot, IMO.


-X

Banning a bigot? Shall we bring ourselves down to his level then? And where shall we stop once you've started that ball rolling? I find it very interesting that you used the word "verbotten".

b.k. barunt wrote:Banning a bigot? Shall we bring ourselves down to his level then? And where shall we stop once you've started that ball rolling? I find it very interesting that you used the word "verbotten".

i certainly respect any stance that is very skeptical and suspicious of censorship. however, b.k., i think colossus is trying to argue that gerazan is in violation of some guidelines around here. i'm interested in your opinion on that, i.e. responding to colussus's last post.....

fine, whatever. I can ignore the guy. I just wondered what the mods thought of this guy's posts. He seems pretty over the top to me. I'm generally not one for censorship (as you've seen in our discussion on language in the general forum), but this guy seems out of hand to me based on the guidelines for the forums. Why bother having guidelines for the forums at all if anything goes? I mean, if anything does, in fact, go here, that's fine with me, but if that's the case, they should just scrap the guidelines altogether. b.k., you've seen some of my other posts, so you know that I'm not for excessive monitoring or regulation of what people say here at all. I've seen a lot of people saying a lot of outrageous things here in various threads, but this guy takes the cake. Perhaps instead of posting here, I should have just started a poll in Flame Wars on whether or not Gerazan is a raging asshole.

Yea, i find your stance on this thread somewhat incongruous with your stance on the language thread. If there are "guidelines" prohibiting gerazan's type of posting, then they should be scrapped. One of the things i like best about this site is the free exchange of ideas. I think the mods do an excellent job of maintaining reasonable order without stifling that free exchange. Young people on the site need to be exposed to racist attitudes and arguments, in order to assess their value or lack thereof. I think that this is an ideal forum for them to see these views and hear rebuttal on them.

I hear that argument. I really do, and I guess that Gerazan just got under my skin a little bit with his latest thread, though I see that has turned into a detailed debate between other parties. What I think is retarded about him is the fact that he doesn't really discuss the issues that he raises. He basically just seems to me to be deliberately trying to offend members of various groups. I can totally see what you're saying, so we should probably quit posting to this thread and just let it die. Although I am seriously considering starting a 'Is Gerazan a moron?' poll in flame wars. maybe that's more appropriate.

I would still like to hear a mod's views on this, though. I still wonder why there is a guideline at all regarding bigotry and racism if what Gerazan posts is okay. It's sort of like gun laws in Philly...if it's meaningless and entirely unenforced, then why have the thing in the first place? I also would argue, b.k., that there is a HUGE difference between uttering profanity in frustration or calling you a panty-sniffing douche bag and blatant, rampant abuse of gays, blacks, muslims, or any other group (Catholics included ).

I guess all I'm wondering about is a clarification on what's cool here and what isn't. I will agree that is a tough line to draw and a hairy thing to start doing. But this guy, Gerazan, just seems SO over the top to me.

Case in point: In the "your mama" jokes thread, the guy with the ugly big nosed dude avatar (Sal13 or some number), comes out with a joke i won't repeat about a black woman. Now i would shed no tears if they banned that stupid, worthless piece of . . . But gerazan is posting his opinions about certain political issues, and his rights should not be abrogated here. He is posting out of a sense of duty, and he doesn't have the intellect to debate the issues. They say that a good man knows his limitations, so maybe he could even be a good man?

And again BK missed the entire point....nicely done..

The site owner has posted some rules of behavior. That’s his right. You accepted those limitations by posting here. Those rules are to prevent this site from burning down to a bunch of 3 year old flame party, (e.g. like your general posting level) Now, it is one thing to make a joke or humorous remark or even flame a single person, but it is quite a stretch from being a bigot in your posting. It is telling to see that you cannot tell the difference.

Now I suggest we wait and see what a mod has to tell. Maybe the mods will ask this person from refraining to post these views, maybe not. I am assuming there is not much to tell and the situation will return to ´normal´ are usual. Banning on the basis of a few posts is rare, and I have a feeling it will stay rare in the future.

b.k. barunt wrote:................. Young people on the site need to be exposed to racist attitudes and arguments, in order to assess their value or lack thereof. I think that this is an ideal forum for them to see these views and hear rebuttal on them.

This is not a political site. I do not see a need to expose children or anybody else for that matter, to racism or bigorty. Next you will be saying children need to be exposed to sex, so they learn the merits of rape..

well, i must say, i am less surprised at you then i thought...

okay, then. it looks to me like ANY exchange between you two should probably be in Flame Wars.... Still would love to hear a mod's take here. Last time I'll ask, I promise.

You are probably right. It’s just that miss BK continues to keep name-calling and sprouting nonsense in every other (if not every) post. I don’t have to sit here and take that from the forum retard. In the BK posts I try and think before I post. Weirdly enough, I succeed mostly, while only a handful is based on grating too much to be ignored. Most posts are where I continue the discussion despite the interference.

Offers to stop and even trying to be nice do not seem to work with BK. In that respect strong language might be advisable, but then I can never reach his level, no matter how low I go.

My opinion is that as long as you don’t give the mods headaches, you are probably safe if you try and keep your nose clean. Go out of your way to harm people/site/whatever and you will most likely get the lid on it. Ofcourse what is allowed is something else then what is admired by other posters. Strong words tend to come from those people who cannot express themselves and are by some (maybe many) considered to show lack of maturity.

That having said, you can see why I don’t see a need for strong language so I am asking you now. Why should we condone/encourage/not discourage (pick or chose) the use of strong language in forum posts/game chat/pm´s and feedback?

Frankly, I believe very strongly in being REAL with people...all people. That doesn't necessarily mean insulting or anything like that; I try my best to be civil, but all of the people that I know who refuse to use 'strong language' are just fooling themselves or trying to fool others. They are either being incredibly sanctimonious (which is annoying and condescending to their listeners/readers) or are swearing in their heads and merely restraining themselves in order to sound more intellectual. Either way, they are not being real with others. I work in one of the foremost scientific research institutions in the US with some of the smartest people you'll find anywhere, and the simple fact is that all people swear, even the smart ones. That doesn't mean that I feel the need to use 'fucking' as an adjective every third word or to call people nasty names just because I'm angry. This is where the difference between abusive language and 'naughty' language comes into play. So, to answer your question, I think that the guidelines for the forums are excellent as written in that the only no-nos are abuse of others and overt bigotry. I think those guidelines are consistent with a forum that allows open, REAL exchange of ideas, viewpoints, humor, etc. I have had a few posting conversations with b.k., and we've agreed and we've disagreed and I haven't found him to be so bad as you describe. It just amazes me that people can take other poster's viewpoints so personally. After this thread, I realize that banning Gerazan isn't necessarily the way to go because with every post, he's being rebuffed (often brutally) by more reasonable people. I was pretty much just interested in hearing what the moderators of this site have to say on stuff like this. I gather from the lack of mod response (which is fine) that the policy is to let these things work themselves out on their own if at all possible. So, now, can we please let this thread die?

sebstar, what the hell is wrong w/ you? you know better than this. bk was debating the issue here, and you come in talking shit about how bad he is at posting.....you're jacking this thread for your little feud. take it somewhere else, you look bad on this one, not bk.....

Bigotry should be banned...

If language is to be banned, then Ronaldinho is the first to go!

Anarkistsdream wrote:Bigotry should be banned...

I'm not one to say what should or shouldn't be banned. I'm pretty new here, and I'm not even premium yet, so as far as I'm concerned, that is up to the operators of the site. I like this site a lot. I enjoy the forums, and one of the things that I liked when I first logged in to the forums here was the fact that the guidelines said basically, 'look anything goes excessive abuse of others, and excessive spouting of bigoted viewpoints.' I liked that because I think the forums here are a good spot for people to converse about lots of stuff without degenerating into a constant stream of unfair, prejudiced generalizations. While I realize that people should be free to share their viewpoints (otherwise there isn't open exchange), I think that people who use the cite purely to promote their clearly racist, sexist, Anglo-supremist viewpoints, it's time for them to go. The only reason I started this thread is because I thought this Gerazan guy was exactly the sort that the guidelines were written to prevent. Apparently that's not so, so, whatever. I'll just ignore him and his posts from here on out.

And SebStar, I have to concur with Neph, here. you're completely off topic.

If i am offtopic i appologize. I think I merged the following thread http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 261#281261 adn the ideas on this thread in the above posts. Whichs was wrong to begin with since they both deal with different subjects. Hence the appology

The problem with banning bigotry is that, given the penchant some people have for control ("sir" sebstar are you listening?), this could turn into an endless chain of witch hunts. Bigotry needs to be exposed, not banned. The worst bigotry actually begins with a hunger for control (re Nazi Germany), which is accomplished by playing on the fears of the populace. If the anti bigots get this control by bans and whatnots, they will inevitably assert their own form of bigotry. Check your history books - bigotry begins with power, and the bigotry we are seeing from gerazan is the dying embers of a bygone era. Resist it, and reprove it, but when you ban it you make it attractive to rebels like myself - you wouldn't want to turn me into a bigot now would you?

excellent point, b.k. thanks for helping me see that. I'm not being sarcastic here. I really do appreciate that last comment.

A bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
It is considered so much bad form by society that most countries have laws against bigotry or actions inspired by it (hate crimes). To get to your post.

b.k. barunt wrote:The problem with banning bigotry is that, given the penchant some people have for control ("sir" sebstar are you listening?), this could turn into an endless chain of witch hunts.

Your first argument includes witch-hunt. Got anything to back that up on this site or is this another point you try to make in defiance of actual evidence. This site, as you claimed before, has a laid back attitude. I fail to see how that attitude would constitute and witch-hunt to anybody but those with a severe streak of narcism and paranoia.

b.k. barunt wrote: If the anti bigots get this control by bans and whatnots, they will inevitably assert their own form of bigotry.

If by this you mean to say that those in power tend to try and stay in power by any means necessary. Well throughout history it would prove you right. As to its value of this particular discussion I fail to see any relevance save for my previous remark.

b.k. barunt wrote:Resist it, and reprove it, but when you ban it you make it attractive to rebels like myself

Now I could be childish again and see this as prove of your bigotry, by you glorifying it as being a rebel. But then I just have . More to the point, banning acts of bigotry does not make it more appealing. Trying an appeasement policy with bigots is appalling and counterproductive. Since this is neither a political site nor a police station there is no need to seek out bigotry. That kind of seeking would more constitute a witch-hunt then anything else. But any in your face act of bigotry is by definition easily recognizable by the majority and as such a clear guidance on when action can and maybe should be taken.

B.K. I don’t have to turn you into a bigot. I think you manage nicely on your own. Even if that is just because you are obstinately or intolerantly devoted to your own opinions and prejudices. As I have said before, I am no moderator, I am not the law and this represents not the view of this site, but just my own. There is no witch-hunt out to get you and I am not seeking to control anybody, but I will stand up is I see something wrong or when someone is abused or attacked. You can keep calling me names for voicing my opinion but at least I make an apology when I am confronted with a greater wisdom then my own and where I am wrong. I could live without your petty personal attacks. As I have argued in the posts above yours is that this is not a political site and there is no need to ´expose´ bigotries. Assuming there is no need to expose bigotries, I see no reason for the site owners not to enforce whatever they feel is needed to keep this site clean.

If bigotry would lead to banning, then surely you would have to agree with me that this is a good thing, since your post can be construed to be against bigotries.

Miss sebstar, for someone with very little of any relevance to say, you take up a helluva lot of space.