Conquer Club

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:11 pm**

Hi all.

I wanted to bring this to the public's attention, rather than send in an e-ticket as LOVO suggests. Let's face it, the admin is too slow, too private, and near as I can tell, don't really care about us. LOVO and I are having a serious disagreement.

Anyway, here's what happened.

I joined Live Chat, first time in a while. Next thing I know, I'm in "Triva Questions." It's been a while since I have been in chat, and I don't follow the cc news. I thought I was in a private room that everyone was being invited into. Anyway, there I am having a discussion with a couple of other chat regulars. To keep with the Trivia theme, we are asking each other half-assed trivia questions about whatever we are talking about. LOVO comes in, and says that we are not allowed to use the Trivia tab to have discussions. I asked him why. He says that it's in the Live Chat rules, and he posts the following link:
viewtopic.php?t=124342

All I find is this:

If you are intentionally disrupting the trivia and causing trouble there will be someone there to take any appropriate action to ensure that the contests remain fun for everyone involved.

It's like 8AM on Teusday night; There's no Trivia even scheduled until

Wednesday 18th of August
Time: 20:00 UTC (23:00 EEST)
Organisers: amazzony & lord voldemort

LOVO know's that for obvious reasons.
So I, being the smartass that I am, kindly point out that there is no rule there about using Trivia Chat when the competitions aren't happening. So he kicks me from Trivia. So I post the rule that I did find (the one above) in social and tell him again that there is no rule in the link. In response, Lord Voldemort said that he would go check (which I feel was the right thing to say and do). A long pause happens. And I ask him if he found the rule that he claims exists. He doesn't respond... and then Instead he posts this bullsh*t:

Because of the dynamic and always-going nature of chat, all rules and guidelines are interpreted according to the situation solely at the Moderator's discretion. Moderator directions and/or decisions made are to be followed without question. If a user has a problem with the direction or decision that the moderator made, the user is not to disrupt the room in complaint but to address the moderator directly through private messaging. If you feel the situation was not resolved sufficiently, you may forward the problem to the Head Chatter or any of the Admin. Be sure to include logs of the attempted resolution.

viewtopic.php?p=1759438#p1759438

The rule never existed. I guess It was made-up. And he couldn't admit that he made a mistake or that he was wrong, so he was hiding behind the guidelines. But the chat guidelines say (right above) that if I think that I am wronged I should take it up with the Head Chatter (moderator). Which I was doing. LOVO told me to take it to admin instead. Pretty soon, I was banned from Live Chat because I wouldn't drop the issue. Because I was talking about it with everyone.

Allow me to add a disclaimer here. YES I was warned repeatedly to stop talking about it. Lovo defined it as trolling, which was the excuse he used to ban me.

Comment:

you continue to troll and be intentionally annoying in live chat...and ignore simple requests from a moderator. If you have an issue please take it up with admin. you were given countless warnings

Regards,
The Conquer Club

But the truth is he just didn't want me pointing out to everyone that he made a mistake and couldn't admit to it. I would call into question his competence as a moderator and a leader.

lol good luck with that..andy is online now so is king a..pm them

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:17 pm**

Why couldn't you just chat in a different room? Sounds like your stubbornness caused the real problem here.

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:22 pm**

I read about half of this, it was a long post. I understand where you're coming from. Having said that, it really doesn't seem like a big deal to go to another room. Also, lovo's a pretty laid back guy, he doesn't seem to be the overly aggressive/iron fist type. I really don't think that this was something that needed a thread about it.

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:26 pm**

Play any good games lately?

They key here is this line: being the smartass that I am

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:29 pm**

agreed, you're just making it worse. Have you even talked to InsomniaRed (the head chatter)? Your post makes it seem like you only talked to lovo then came straight here. I think you know that's not the right way to go about fixing this.

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:30 pm**

Eh, the point is that the moderators shouldn't be allowed to invent rules (and then enforce them out of the blue). I happily follow the ones that we already have. The longer that you are on CC, the more that you will see the moderators do that. They're all only human, so they can't all be good moderators. And they can't all be perfect. But! I expect a leader to admit when they make a mistake. I don't expect to be banned for his errors and his not wanting to admit to them. Over time I've learned that the only thing that you really can do, is make a thread about it and let people know.

I really haven't been here that long. But long enough to know that all the people who were the most vocal about how we should be treated have all been slowly banned away, or threatened with it. There's not too many of us left. In that respect, even this stuff becomes a real issue.

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:36 pm**

moving this to C& A.

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:51 pm**

Unsure if this belongs in here but sure. Like I told u countless times. If you have a problem to take it to someone in red. I'll leave this for them

Posted: **Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:22 pm**

Juan_Bottom wrote:Eh, the point is that the moderators shouldn't be allowed to invent rules (and then enforce them out of the blue). I happily follow the ones that we already have. The longer that you are on CC, the more that you will see the moderators do that. They're all only human, so they can't all be good moderators. And they can't all be perfect. But! I expect a leader to admit when they make a mistake. I don't expect to be banned for his errors and his not wanting to admit to them. Over time I've learned that the only thing that you really can do, is make a thread about it and let people know.

I really haven't been here that long. But long enough to know that all the people who were the most vocal about how we should be treated have all been slowly banned away, or threatened with it. There's not too many of us left. In that respect, even this stuff becomes a real issue.

He didn't randomly make up a rule.

He was simply doing his part to enforce what had already been agreed upon and disseminated to the site. Your stubbornness was uncalled for. As was this thread to tell us all how stubborn you are. Congrats you dislike authority and question their boundaries, your general achievement medal is on the way.

*edit, turns out general cantankerous behavior has not earned anyone a general achievement medal and yours may not actually be on its way.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:25 am**

Georgerx7di wrote:lovo's a pretty laid back guy, he doesn't seem to be the overly aggressive/iron fist type.

You don't spend any time with him in chat :lol:

Juan_Bottom wrote: But the chat guidelines say (right above) that if I think that I am wronged I should take it up with the Head Chatter (moderator). Which I was doing.

No you were not. LV is not the head chatter, InsomniaRed is. If you have an issue with one of the chat mods, take it up with an admin or InsomniaRed, don't keep arguing with the person who made the decision.

The decision to keep Trivia Contest as a room just used for the contest and questions about the contest was decided by a discussion between the Chatters and Entertainment Team while discussing the event, and as such cannot be linked to for the public. LV could have explained this better instead of pointing to the LC guidelines - but he did tell you to stop, he did give you a warning, and you did continue to cause trouble and not listen. I'm sorry Juan, but in this case LV did follow the rules and gave you a chance to stop.

LV failed to say that the rule about Trivia Contest is not public, but other than that he did as I would have done in the same situation.

Jake

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:45 am**

i think what the problem juan is trying 2 get at like you have admitted jake is that what juan was doing was not explained anywhere in guidelines. so lv comes in says all this and that posts somewhere to check where the rule is(where it isn't there)so juan quiestions it and asks lv 2 show him where the rule is. instead of lv saying the following.

sorry juan it seems we forgot to add this to the rules but you can not use trivia for any form of disscusion in future as this is not allowd outside of trivia times.

but instead boots the player from chat.

jake you have experianced this kind of attitued from lv as well in one of your tourneys where lv made a mistake and blamed you for not stating rules properly in stead of a simple i am sorry.

i do understand that no mods get paid for a job but a simple sorry goes a long way. also when you accept the position you also accept to act on behalf of cc. So i think that juan was within his right to talk with other players because he was wrongfully punished for something that was not stated as against the rules. i also do not see how trolling comes into this as all he was doing was asking other players opinion on the matter.

lol i think its starting

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:55 am**

live chat guidelines wrote:Because of the dynamic and always-going nature of chat, all rules and guidelines are interpreted according to the situation solely at the Moderator's discretion. Moderator directions and/or decisions made are to be followed without question. If a user has a problem with the direction or decision that the moderator made, the user is not to disrupt the room in complaint but to address the moderator directly through private messaging. If you feel the situation was not resolved sufficiently, you may forward the problem to the Head Chatter or any of the Admin. Be sure to include logs of the attempted resolution.

That's what matters. If you don't think a mod is handling something correctly, you should save the copies of the logs and contact someone the Head Chatter or an Admin. I know (and like) both Juan and LV, and I believe that the odds are good that those two going up against each other will never turn out well.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:00 pm**

Metsfanmax wrote:Why couldn't you just chat in a different room? Sounds like your stubbornness caused the real problem here.

No, the problem here is inconsistency and abusive power. Others were allowed to chat in that room. Permission was granted today, for someone to chat in the room aside from the Trivia Contest. The permission was not granted by lovo, but another moderator, which reflects the inconsistency. With some being given permission and others being kicked for questioning another mod's inconsistent ruling, that does make it abuse.

Inconsistency is 90% of CC's difficulties. There will always be grey areas, but the grey areas do not have to be 10 miles wide. When there are grey areas, kick/bans without first, FORMAL official warnings, are abusive.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:10 pm**

i forgot 2 say i went 2 live chat once about some sort of bug that was happening it was getting disscussed in callouts i said somthing and lv threatened 2 boot me for it even though he was discusing it with another player.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:52 pm**

Perhaps if some mods with a bit of wisdom, compassion, and a sense of fairness were chosen, as well as the ability to LISTEN.

Power corrupts.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:57 pm**

stahrgazer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Why couldn't you just chat in a different room? Sounds like your stubbornness caused the real problem here.

No, the problem here is inconsistency and abusive power. Others were allowed to chat in that room. Permission was granted today, for someone to chat in the room aside from the Trivia Contest. The permission was not granted by lovo, but another moderator, which reflects the inconsistency. With some being given permission and others being kicked for questioning another mod's inconsistent ruling, that does make it abuse.

Inconsistency is 90% of CC's difficulties. There will always be grey areas, but the grey areas do not have to be 10 miles wide. When there are grey areas, kick/bans without first, FORMAL official warnings, are abusive.

It makes no difference what another mod decides to do. LV was looking after chat that day and he decided he didn't want conversation in that room. End of. LV donates his spare time to look after chat, and if he makes a very reasonable request to move the conversation elsewhere, then it should be done. There was no need for Juan to be stubborn when it was so easy to just move rooms.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:03 pm**

he also received many formal warnings before the kick/ban

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:10 pm**

Pander88uk wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Why couldn't you just chat in a different room? Sounds like your stubbornness caused the real problem here.

No, the problem here is inconsistency and abusive power. Others were allowed to chat in that room. Permission was granted today, for someone to chat in the room aside from the Trivia Contest. The permission was not granted by lovo, but another moderator, which reflects the inconsistency. With some being given permission and others being kicked for questioning another mod's inconsistent ruling, that does make it abuse.

Inconsistency is 90% of CC's difficulties. There will always be grey areas, but the grey areas do not have to be 10 miles wide. When there are grey areas, kick/bans without first, FORMAL official warnings, are abusive.

It makes no difference what another mod decides to do. LV was looking after chat that day and he decided he didn't want conversation in that room. End of. LV donates his spare time to look after chat, and if he makes a very reasonable request to move the conversation elsewhere, then it should be done. There was no need for Juan to be stubborn when it was so easy to just move rooms.

Juan has not been on the site much lately.

The room was made for the trivia contest.

Juan and others were asking trivia questions in the room.

Juan was not aware of the real purpose of the room. He stated all this in his initial post.

He was asked to leave. He was told a reason that does not appear on the link he was given. This is really stupid. It should have been explained the true purpose of the room and then kindly asked that they take it elsewhere.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:15 pm**

Juan was told quite clearly the purpose and states so himself:

Juan_Bottom wrote:LOVO comes in, and says that we are not allowed to use the Trivia tab to have discussions. I asked him why. He says that it's in the Live Chat rules, and he posts the following link:
viewtopic.php?t=124342

...

So I, being the smartass that I am, kindly point out that there is no rule there about using Trivia Chat when the competitions aren't happening. So he kicks me from Trivia.

What is wrong with this? Lovo explained his case, and only removed Juan from TRIVIA, which he shouldn't need to be using anyway, not the whole of chat. That only happened when Juan wouldn't let it rest.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:16 pm**

lord voldemort wrote:he also received many formal warnings before the kick/ban

No. Formal warnings are in forum messages; you kicked him from the room without explaining when he asked why, and you banned him from the other chatrooms for continuing to ask why. All you kept doing was repeating the same link that he didn't see had the answer, cursing him (and others) then you banned him.

As for the poster who said it doesn't matter? It SHOULD matter. It SHOULD matter that some are allowed to do what Juan was doing, and others are not allowed to do the very same thing. It SHOULD matter that the discrepancy is so great that Juan is ultimately banned merely for asking "why" - while others get to do what Juan was doing that was never fully explained to him why he couldn't.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:18 pm**

stahrgazer wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:he also received many formal warnings before the kick/ban

No. Formal warnings are in forum messages; you kicked him from the room without explaining when he asked why, and you banned him from the other chatrooms for continuing to ask why. All you kept doing was repeating the same link that he didn't see had the answer, cursing him (and others) then you banned him.

As for the poster who said it doesn't matter? It SHOULD matter. It SHOULD matter that some are allowed to do what Juan was doing, and others are not allowed to do the very same thing. It SHOULD matter that the discrepancy is so great that Juan is ultimately banned merely for asking "why" - while others get to do what Juan was doing that was never fully explained to him why he couldn't.

Merely asking why? Sounds a bit more than that, and as I mentioned previously, he was told the reason, so no need to keep asking. Also as I said previously, Lovo donates a LOT of time to help this site run which he doesn't have to do. You should all be grateful to him for doing this free of charge!

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:21 pm**

Lovo made a mistake. Juan also made a mistake. Who is paying?

Grow up, admit you made a mistake.

Apologies all around. Shake hands.

It's over.

But that's not what happened.

Only one person pays.

Be the bigger man Lovo and reinstate Juan.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:29 pm**

samuelc812 wrote:
[Important] General Rules and Courtesies

[*]Usual chat guidelines apply, here.
[*]Social stays in Social, Callouts stay in Callouts and Trivia Contests is only for Trivia Contests.
[*]If you are intentionally disrupting the trivia and causing trouble there will be someone there to take any appropriate action to ensure that the contests remain fun for everyone involved.
[*]The organisers/hosts will be posting with colour, bold, italics & underline (or a combination of the preceding) so that questions and instructions are easily visible.
[*]Users must not post answers or chat in coloured, bolded, italicised or underlined text so as to avoid confusion between questions and instructions from the host. Users who do post like this may have their answers ignored.
[*]Discussion should be kept to a minimum so that the host can move at a consistent pace.
[*]Once you have won a trivia contest, you cannot win another.
[*]Once you have said your answer to a question that is it, 1 answer per person per question. (The Host may decide to allow a second answer).
[*]Your answers will be ignored if you are posting like 10 different answers at once.

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:34 pm**

HE DID NOT KNOW OF THE REAL TRIVIA CONTEST AND WAS HAVING A TRIVIA CONTEST WITH A FEW OTHERS N THE ROOM. THEY WERE ACTUALLY USING THE ROOM FOR A PART OF ITS ACTUAL PURPOSE.

WHY IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTAND????

HEARING AIDS FOR ALL!!!!!!!

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:39 pm**

lol stah you arrived in the last 5 mins of the hour long saga...you honestly have no idea.
here is how it went down...
i rock up in chat...see a bunch of people chatting socially in the trivia tab...I post a generic message along the lines keep social in social or no posting in trivia tab thanks etc
most people left....tisha, cali dreamer, tfo among others.
Juan continued to talk....an di let it be for a few minutes.
I then asked him again to not be posting in that room. He asked why whats the point of this room i didnt join it...
I provided him with the link to the summer bash thread. explaining the trivia contest.
He then continued to talk and ask why he couldnt post in there.
I tried explaining that trivia is for triva. social is for social as callouts is for callouts
simple as that.
He continued to post in that tab. I kicked him from it. (just the trivia tab)
This there should be the end of discussion
it then spills into social.
The complaints and arguments come from both sides.
He continues to ask for the rule where you cannot post in trivia. i quote and and give links to chat guidelines where it says a) social is for social callouts is for callouts etc. The line where this is not an exhaustive list of rules and its up to mods discression. The line where chat is an every growing machine in which you have to moderate on the fly.
He continues to argue about the issue. After a good 45 mins of myself and several other members in chat trying to explain the issue. I then tell everyone to drop the issue. That if juan has an issue about it to take it to insom red or an admin. I warn him that if he doesnt drop the issue i will kick him for trolling and continually being annoying. (1st chat infraction)
He keeps going i give him a final warning...he keeps going again...I kick. (2nd chat infraction)
He comes back in several minutes later. I then post to him to let it die or i will not hesitate to kick and ban him. After 5 mins of him again trying to argue his point. I kick and ban him. (3rd chat infraction (24 hour ban))

So Juan was actually banned for trolling.
Did i make a mistake....nope...Im only doing what was asked of me. I feel i gave juan plenty of warnings...plenty of chances...and plenty of explanation (as did several other members of chat) is it arrogant that i say i didnt make a mistake..maybe but I know im right and i wont back down from that. And to be perfectly honest dont really care what people think of me as I get way more critics hunting multies than dealing with trolls in live chat

Conquer Club

Lord Voldemort abuse power [cleared]

Lord Voldemort abuse power [cleared]

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin

Re: Lord Voldemort abuse power / Juan_Bottom crosses the lin