A note to the moderators

[Frop]

After all, some people don't have friends, right JR?

My, what a peculiar thing for a moderator to say. Are you sure you're in the right part of the forum?

[Teutonics]

The tools and data we use to hunt multis are closely guarded secrets (only 7 active people on the site have this info), which is why twill said if you had any workable suggestions for proving *secret alliances* to post them. I seriously doubt Lack would create a committee and divulge our multi hunting tools to a larger group.

There's no need to divulge to the committee the steps already being taken. Task it providing you with a set of algorithms that would uncover suspicious activity.

They'll know whether you use their tools via future cheating reports -- if people keep on catching the cheats which you should have caught first with the tools they gave you, it will be clear whether or not you implemented their suggestions.

[daydream]

The tools and data we use to hunt multis are closely guarded secrets (only 7 active people on the site have this info), which is why twill said if you had any workable suggestions for proving *secret alliances* to post them. I seriously doubt Lack would create a committee and divulge our multi hunting tools to a larger group.

Wicked...heres the line



same IP = cheater

____________________________

different IP = non cheater



you can only be on 1 side of the line. there is no secret way to determine if its a cheater or not.

tbh i do believe that in many cases family members or roommates play cc too. i am not one of them (at least not to my knowledge), so you cant tell me thats why i am arguing that point. i know tho that on many other sites people have to announce this when registering and will be automatically blocked from playing games together to prevent abuse. In my oppinion that function could be implemented here as well. Especially since if you live together, you usually also have other games to play together apart from conquer club

sure, some won't like that, but you can't please everyone, eh?

another function i have seen on another site is a 'vacation mode' in which you can select someone to substitute you. that player then can log into your account by simply clicking a link in his account. that will make monitoring who is subbing whom a lot easier, especially if you add in a minimum of 24 hours, which will stop cheaters from (ab)using it. in said mode, the substitute could not join games (or only tournament games, so the other player wont be kicked out). hmm, i'd have to give this more thought, but tbh thats for the cc team to do anyways, not me

i'm sure both of those have already been suggested, but i'm just gonna throw that out there, take it or leave it.

[AAFitz]

Spin it as you like, but all I have seen is how company management has been discouraging the reporting of cheaters, unless the cheating occurs in one's personal game. If you present a cheat report of cheating not involved in your game, it gets ignored. For example, I filed a report a month ago on a multi that was clearly cheating, but that thread has been ignored. A second example: Ooga Booga caught a pair of cheaters, yet his thread was ignored for 3 weeks & 80 posts as the cheaters and their cohorts trashed him. A third example: Johnnyrocket filed a report that has been ignored for 3 weeks & 30 posts. Ignoring the reports shows that management is not all that concerned about stopping the cheating & is acting in a manner to discourage self-appointed hunters from continuing their efforts to root out the cheating.

Ooga's case is the most telling. Management initially tried to brush it off and cleared the cheaters, even though Ooga had presented 25 games in which they had been cheating. It wasn't until half-a-dozen people had taken up the fight to reverse that shocking ruling & several people were openly stating that it was a CC conspiracy, that they finally relented and instituted a block on the cheaters. Yet, Ooga's question of why they only got a block for committing more cheating than he did (while he got a score reset for his self-admitted cheating in another thread) has yet to be answered. Two weeks ago management said they would talk about about a possible reset, but it appears they have begun to ignore that thread again.

Limiting this judicial review to the people that experience cheating in their personal games hides the full scope of the cheating and lets the cheating, which can't be caught through IP checks, continue virtually unabated. The problem is that in our personal games, we are all like the 3 blind men & the elephant. We don't realize it is a cheating elephant because we don't have the perspective to see the 'big picture.' So, cheating here may be a common occurrence, but we will never know for certain, unless management does more to stop it.

Back in the Ooga thread, one of the mods showed his irritation and lashed out at Ooga for reporting on something that he wasn't involved in. I didn't understand the rationale for comment at the time. But I do now - Businesses are in business to make money & driving away the cheaters reduces profits. And so long as we are 'blind' in our personal games, we are all blind to the full extent of the cheating and remain happy customers. And by only getting blocked, in the unlikely that they are caught, the cheaters remain happy customers as well.

T.

Well, im not spinning it at all.. ive played over 2000 of these, and have a fair Idea how many times ive been cheated, and the percentage per game is so small, I think anyone who thinks its out of control, is just paranoid, and just doesnt understand that any game that actually ends, except perhaps for escalating, and 2 player, means that someone made a mistake, and someone attacked someone too much. So every game looks like a secret alliance.

Feel free to let a few cheaters ruin your experience, spend your time trying to bash management for not doing enough, and find many other ways to waste your time. But dont spend too much time researching the cheating forum, getting to know the multi hunters, or really seeing exactly how much time is being spent on trying to squash the few cheaters, while not stagnate the rest of the rule abiding community. If you do research how much time they put into this publicly and privately... youre gonna feel a little foolish making these claims.

T.

[Teutonics]

What is really a waste of time is doing the research by hand when it could be accomplished sooo much more easily & quickly through the use of automated tools that an ad hoc committee could provide management with.

[DiM]

The tools and data we use to hunt multis are closely guarded secrets (only 7 active people on the site have this info), which is why twill said if you had any workable suggestions for proving *secret alliances* to post them. I seriously doubt Lack would create a committee and divulge our multi hunting tools to a larger group.

Wicked...heres the line



same IP = cheater

____________________________

different IP = non cheater



you can only be on 1 side of the line. there is no secret way to determine if its a cheater or not.

actually johnny you're wrong in many ways.

same ip does not mean you're a cheater. it might mean brother+sister it might mean using a public pc (library, internet cafe, wireless hot spots) or it might even mean using the same pc at work.

imagine blocking the ip of an internet cafe and thus blocking 50 innocent people.


also different ip doesn't automatically absolve you from cheating. ever heard of proxys? or dynamic ips? mods can check i log in usualy from 3 ips but i also logged in from ips from usa. does that make me a multi? hell no.

i bet with a little bit of data mining i could even log in from your ip johnny. how would you like to be busted for being my multi?

[Soloman]

The tools and data we use to hunt multis are closely guarded secrets (only 7 active people on the site have this info), which is why twill said if you had any workable suggestions for proving *secret alliances* to post them. I seriously doubt Lack would create a committee and divulge our multi hunting tools to a larger group.

Wicked...heres the line



same IP = cheater

____________________________

different IP = non cheater



you can only be on 1 side of the line. there is no secret way to determine if its a cheater or not.

actually johnny you're wrong in many ways.

same ip does not mean you're a cheater. it might mean brother+sister it might mean using a public pc (library, internet cafe, wireless hot spots) or it might even mean using the same pc at work.

imagine blocking the ip of an internet cafe and thus blocking 50 innocent people.


also different ip doesn't automatically absolve you from cheating. ever heard of proxys? or dynamic ips? mods can check i log in usualy from 3 ips but i also logged in from ips from usa. does that make me a multi? hell no.

i bet with a little bit of data mining i could even log in from your ip johnny. how would you like to be busted for being my multi?

Sadly enough if you read his other posts he believes if a person plays with Family or friends they are cheating.

[AAFitz]

well, i looked over a few of your games... it seems to me, you are definitely working with a few of those players to win some points...

prove that false...

you simply cant...no matter how hard you try...theres no automated tool for that....

Anyone who plays this game a lot, can easily get away with a few secret alliances. Its just a matter of putting aside self respect, honor and pride, and similarly there is no way to prove there isnt a secret alliance. Its an honor system in the end, and only those with honor will abide. But banning every player that gets accused of one would be pure insanity, because while a few actual cheaters would get punished, multitudes of innocents would be persecuted.

I can easily find a game of yours, where you made moves to let another player win. I can easily call it a secret alliance. Luckilly, many will come to your defense, and show me that though you made a mistake, it was just that. My dad had three accusations posted, and his sense of honesty borders on fanatical. If he thought I was cheating, hed report me, and though I might not report him, I sure as hell would get him to stop.

As far as more than one player from the IP, thats a choice to allow family members to play together. Unfortunately it does mean players could cheat using the account. Id like to think Id be smart enough to start using the second account on my Ip and get away with it. I could use a different chat voice, different play style, play different games, and even play a few of the same, just as a sort of alibi.. It would take some concentration, but I could do it, and though I know a few of the hunters would possibly suspect if I was doing it, and some would possibly know for sure, since they know me, I could make it hard to prove.

They know this, and have decided that the enjoyment for family members playing, far outweighs the problems created by the few that actually take advantage of it and get some silly points and a silly Icon. Cd and I would still play together if she liked the game. But the less shes on the forum at this point the better...

You are perfectly in your right to accuse the management for making these decisions out of greed. I simply have seen enough to know that they just dont think that way, and are setting this site up for fun and enjoyment first and foremost.

[Soloman]

well, i looked over a few of your games... it seems to me, you are definitely working with a few of those players to win some points...

prove that false...

you simply cant...no matter how hard you try...theres no automated tool for that....

Anyone who plays this game a lot, can easily get away with a few secret alliances. Its just a matter of putting aside self respect, honor and pride, and similarly there is no way to prove there isnt a secret alliance. Its an honor system in the end, and only those with honor will abide. But banning every player that gets accused of one would be pure insanity, because while a few actual cheaters would get punished, multitudes of innocents would be persecuted.

I can easily find a game of yours, where you made moves to let another player win. I can easily call it a secret alliance. Luckilly, many will come to your defense, and show me that though you made a mistake, it was just that. My dad had three accusations posted, and his sense of honesty borders on fanatical. If he thought I was cheating, hed report me, and though I might not report him, I sure as hell would get him to stop.

As far as more than one player from the IP, thats a choice to allow family members to play together. Unfortunately it does mean players could cheat using the account. Id like to think Id be smart enough to start using the second account on my Ip and get away with it. I could use a different chat voice, different play style, play different games, and even play a few of the same, just as a sort of alibi.. It would take some concentration, but I could do it, and though I know a few of the hunters would possibly suspect if I was doing it, and some would possibly know for sure, since they know me, I could make it hard to prove.

They know this, and have decided that the enjoyment for family members playing, far outweighs the problems created by the few that actually take advantage of it and get some silly points and a silly Icon. Cd and I would still play together if she liked the game. But the less shes on the forum at this point the better...

You are perfectly in your right to accuse the management for making these decisions out of greed. I simply have seen enough to know that they just dont think that way, and are setting this site up for fun and enjoyment first and foremost.

Amen

[wicked]

What is really a waste of time is doing the research by hand when it could be accomplished sooo much more easily & quickly through the use of automated tools that an ad hoc committee could provide management with.

No one said it was all being done by hand. Yes the final decision rests with a real person because in the end, it is all just a judgment call. And again I ask, how could an ad hoc committee help with tools when they don't even know all the data we collect? I understand the want to help and be involved. How you can do that is to continue to have eagle eyes and report suspicious activity; think of it as a neighborhood watch.

[Frop]

What is really a waste of time is doing the research by hand when it could be accomplished sooo much more easily & quickly through the use of automated tools that an ad hoc committee could provide management with.

No one said it was all being done by hand. Yes the final decision rests with a real person because in the end, it is all just a judgment call. And again I ask, how could an ad hoc committee help with tools when they don't even know all the data we collect? I understand the want to help and be involved. How you can do that is to continue to have eagle eyes and report suspicious activity; think of it as a neighborhood watch.

For starters the data you collect should be mentioned in your privacy policy if I'm not mistaken. Next to that, IT isn't exactly rocket science, there are enough people here who know which data you can collect by running a site like this. You can be as secretive as you want about your superduper multihunting tools (hell, it even took tons of user input to 'catch' an obvious fraud like Klobber), but I'm quite sure it's not as exciting as you think. Otherwise you're deliberately trying to shut the people up that are trying to help, but obviously that can't be the case, can it?

[greenoaks]

do we get a neighbourhood watch badge if the accounts we post are eventually found by the hunters to be multis ?

[lancehoch]

For starters the data you collect should be mentioned in your privacy policy if I'm not mistaken.

The problem with this is, if you tell someone how you are catching cheaters, then they can start looking for ways around that. For an example, we all know that CC uses random IP checks as one of the tools, now ask yourself how many times have you seen people accuse someone of using an IP proxy or IP randomizer, or whatever else. And, maybe once in a while that could be true, but now we are all paranoid that people are changing their IP to cheat. If someone on CC works with computers a lot and finds out what is used to check for cheaters, they could develop a system to mask whatever tells the hunters are looking for.

[wicked]

Your email address and any other personally identifiable information will be kept secret. It will never be divulged to other players or any 3rd party without your consent.

We don't have to tell you what info we collect, we just have to promise not to tell anyone else.

[Teutonics]

What is really a waste of time is doing the research by hand when it could be accomplished sooo much more easily & quickly through the use of automated tools that an ad hoc committee could provide management with.

No one said it was all being done by hand. Yes the final decision rests with a real person because in the end, it is all just a judgment call. And again I ask, how could an ad hoc committee help with tools when they don't even know all the data we collect? I understand the want to help and be involved. How you can do that is to continue to have eagle eyes and report suspicious activity; think of it as a neighborhood watch.

"By hand" was referring to the work the players must do in order to post about the cheats. I know that all of the game-play information that I see on your site is in the database and I know that virtually every task I did in gathering evidence about the cheats could have been done automatically through database tools. The fact that players brought some of these cheats, who have been getting away with murder, to your attention before you found them on your own shows that your company is not utilizing some very basic tools, which would help to minimize the cheating problem.

The gloman/jsmith report is a good example. Those two were very active together in the Doodle games and their cheating was brazen. Simple tools could have caught them, such as running checks to identify players that often play together, high an unusually high win %, and take actions inconsistent with typical behavior. Such tools would have discovered that those two played about 90% of their Doodle games together, jsmith had an unusually high win %, and that gloman often took territories from jsmith's target, which helped jsmith to win. And once the tools identify suspicious activity, human involvement from someone at your company would separate the cheats from the superior players. It's not rocket science.

And.. actually I do not wish to become involved in such a committee because I don't have the qualifications or the free time. But I know that others with the proper qualifications would wish to become involved. They would actively work to improve the site, if given the opportunity.

What I do not understand is why you are resisting such a reasonable suggestion.

[wicked]

I'm not resisting the entire suggestion, just the committee, as I don't think that's necessary. As I previously stated, we are already looking into getting more tools, whenever Lack has the time. And you're assuming that case you mentioned wasn't already flagged by our current tools, which may not be the case. The Hunters try to clear through the forums and etickets first before working on the other ones.

[Teutonics]

The case I mentioned was left hanging for 3 weeks and 80 posts before anyone at your company paid attention to it. And then your company cleared them of cheating.

It was only after a dozen more people got involved in that thread, that someone at the company looked into the case more closely and realized that the company had made a mistake.

Whatever tools you have, they could certainly be improved upon.

[wicked]

There is always room for improvement!!!! We have a list of tools and such for Lack to implement whenever he has the time.

[Teutonics]

There is always room for improvement and yet you resist the call to form an ad hoc committee to improve your anti-cheating techniques, when you already have committees on dice, scoring, tournaments, and probably others as well.

When there is always room for improvement, I don't understand why you resist so strongly. It makes little sense to me.

[wicked]

Why do we need a committee to tell us what we already know? Or have you missed it the two times I've said it before that we already have a long list of proposed tools to improve the hunting? If you have an actual suggestion for a tool, post away, which was pretty much what twill said earlier I believe. We don't need a committee just to have a committee.

[AAFitz]

There is always room for improvement and yet you resist the call to form an ad hoc committee to improve your anti-cheating techniques, when you already have committees on dice, scoring, tournaments, and probably others as well.

When there is always room for improvement, I don't understand why you resist so strongly. It makes little sense to me.

what makes little sense to me, is how you obviously cant understand whats being explained. More tools are on the way. Lack is doing everything he can as quickly as he can. The hunters are putting as much time into it as they can. You clearly just like complaining, and are getting a rush out of it, and in my opinion are just grandstanding here for fun, and have an attitude that is not set up to make any improvement to the site whatsoever, and only to cause trouble. Id honestly play a few games with cheaters then read one more narcissistic complaint on your end on how everyone is failing here, and you know best. Im a little tired, and am not usually this blunt, but personally consider your whole argument here arrogant and self serving. No one who wants to truly improve anything, approaches it like this.

[Teutonics]

My tone stems from exasperation and disillusionment.

[delboy01]

My original comment was aimed at how cheats are allowed to continue playing, And use the accounts after being caught. Also, how just by paying again they can continue. I found two accounts that I had reported and were busted and yet they were both still operating 2 months later.

I would like to see cheats have their accounts deleted immediately or logon rights refused. Their games would then deadbeat.

I was playing a 3 man game with the same guy. As were several others. They were allowed to continue and beat me and all the other people they were playing as well. That's just not fair. It' like catching a robber and saying well you have started robbing that jewelry store so we will let you finish!!!

These suggestions are easy to impliment and should be done in fairness to others.

[greenoaks]

My original comment was aimed at how cheats are allowed to continue playing, And use the accounts after being caught. Also, how just by paying again they can continue. I found two accounts that I had reported and were busted and yet they were both still operating 2 months later.

I would like to see cheats have their accounts deleted immediately or logon rights refused. Their games would then deadbeat.

I was playing a 3 man game with the same guy. As were several others. They were allowed to continue and beat me and all the other people they were playing as well. That's just not fair. It' like catching a robber and saying well you have started robbing that jewelry store so we will let you finish!!!

These suggestions are easy to impliment and should be done in fairness to others.

are you suggesting that all games involving a cheat be cancelled immediately.

[delboy01]

My original comment was aimed at how cheats are allowed to continue playing, And use the accounts after being caught. Also, how just by paying again they can continue. I found two accounts that I had reported and were busted and yet they were both still operating 2 months later.

I would like to see cheats have their accounts deleted immediately or logon rights refused. Their games would then deadbeat.

I was playing a 3 man game with the same guy. As were several others. They were allowed to continue and beat me and all the other people they were playing as well. That's just not fair. It' like catching a robber and saying well you have started robbing that jewelry store so we will let you finish!!!

These suggestions are easy to impliment and should be done in fairness to others.

are you suggesting that all games involving a cheat be cancelled immediately.

Not cancelled no but they should not be allowed to complete the games. Cancel their logon rights and they will deadbeat. In fact I see no reason why this could not be made a feature of removing cheats. They immediately deadbeat in games without waiting 3 moves. ie. forced deadbeat.

Certainly the singles, terminator, assassin and standard games would not be effected by this as there are deadbeats in these games already.


In Doubles if the other player were kocha then they would take over the cheats armies, as with a deadbeat now.

In team games i'm not sure how a deadbeat works for these games as I don't play them, however, I'm sure something could be worked out. What happens with deadbeats now in team games?

I also think that and current games should be ended before someone buys back in, and their score should be reset.

Not sure how much of this is currently happening to be honest. It would be nice to see what happens to cheats in black and white.