Kiron & xiangwang[banned/blocked]sn

[xiangwang]

The issue of them being house mates is not really the overriding factor here, for there is nothing in the rules (or against the rules) that says two people who cohabit cannot enter games together. Of course it's a scenario that's ripe for abuse, especially when playing freestyle games. What is poignant is the fact they dovetail their turns to achieve the objective.

Now let's take xiangwang's statement: "It's REALLY obvious when kiron goes onto CC, he doesn't bother hiding the fact he is playing in the house (aka, full screen CC on the monitor for all to see, but doesn't say i'm playing CC) and vice versa. If I know if he is going to play and there is an advantage of me going immediately i will take it and vice versa"

If it is so obvious to you that Kiron is on CC, why then do you habitually start your turn in the final round allowing him to click 'Start' and hold the Objective? What is 'really obvious' to me is that you see he has the objective and you make no effort to prevent him winning the game - something that is practiced on a mutual basis between you (you do it for him and vice versa). This is why there is such a high incidence of the two of you playing a series of sequential turns at the end of each game.

Guys, I think we're forgetting what we learned in kindergarten. If you don't like the way someone's doing something than don't participate in it. So if you don't like the way they play, don't join their games.

Not many of us participated in GLG's games, yet no-one was happy about his tactics. And anyway, it's besides the point. We all participate in the scoreboard.

Except watching him tap the B button while watching a movie until how long is just prolonging the inevitable. By this time the game is over. No point in beating a dead horse.

[rishaed]

I don't really think that they can make an argument convincing enough for me. The OP is extremely detailed, and the fact of the matter is that the Conquerer medal is tainted by this kind of play. It's supposed to show who the best player is, not who can farm the most people without being caught. Its blatantly, done in a way that disgraces the name of risk. It not only removes the strategy from the game for the most part, its things like this that discourage others to come to the site.
Why would I come to a site where I hear that the Conquerer is someone who farms/ranches others? As said from Spiderman, "With Great Power comes great responsibility" in the sense that as the conquerer you are representing everyone else on CC.

Those are not detailed enough. They are all circumstantial evidence, which is not enough. Can Chariot make an argument, yes u can make any argument with circumstantial evidence, but Chariot doesn't know the map very well and some of those games he listed i was actively trying to prevent Xiangwang from winning, and how is it ranching, i open a game, people are free to join, i don't actively go invite beginners to come join. I have won plenty of games without Xiangwang and he without me on the same map regardless. We just found it more of a challenge with better players. Most high ranks don't play freestyle and flatrate.

furthermore Chariot most of the examples were X/K/X or opposite, it was called courtsey since attempting to break after holding objectives is pointless. Even in game Game 7370815 as you quote - "xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win." my army was going on malta to krak to attempt to break antioch...how else am i to reach it????

Chariot most of ur examples are just circumstantial and lets think rationally, on a map with difficult settings, most people are NOT used to, does it NOT make sense that the top two ranking players with the most experience have a greater chance of winning? Our odds are not 1/8 of winning, even playing alone our odds are around 40%, so basic logic will be probability of either X or K winning is the PK+PX or 80%. Of course when u add in more experienced players, it goes down accordingly, nothing fishy, just basic logic.

Ok, Im not detailed enough apparently. I went through Game Finder to find your FINISHED Games on Third Crusade. There are 50. When CoF can pull 21 Examples out of the Hat on Third Crusade that's between 40-50% of your games Most of these games have people who are much higher rank than I am and as such much more skilled than I am.
Out of those 50, 43 of those games are played with Xiangwang (third Crusade only here). Now Take 21/43 Examples thats right around 50% percent. Now how many of us with high ranking players get to hold an objective 21x out of 43x by ourselves. Answer on the other hand is Go for GRENADA or begin your turn between 5/7 am (when you know he won't be up ) I mean Purple/Silver/ any of the other players near the objective could have taken it from him in one move before he could even start his turn.
fp'd
@xiang and they say to let dead dogs lie, but I don't think this is dead or something that just needs to be brushed over.

[mc05025]

Okay coordinating was not the best wording i could have used. But it's REALLY obvious when kiron goes onto CC, he doesn't bother hiding the fact he is playing in the house (aka, full screen CC on the monitor for all to see, but doesn't say i'm playing CC) and vice versa. If I know if he is going to play and there is an advantage of me going immediately i will take it and vice versa.

Playing fog games like that is forbitten for sure. Its secret diplomacy to saw your view in fog of war games.



@ freakns saw some respect to people you do not know and do not understand. This is not a thread to debate and I am not going to answer you

[Kiron]

I don't really think that they can make an argument convincing enough for me. The OP is extremely detailed, and the fact of the matter is that the Conquerer medal is tainted by this kind of play. It's supposed to show who the best player is, not who can farm the most people without being caught. Its blatantly, done in a way that disgraces the name of risk. It not only removes the strategy from the game for the most part, its things like this that discourage others to come to the site.
Why would I come to a site where I hear that the Conquerer is someone who farms/ranches others? As said from Spiderman, "With Great Power comes great responsibility" in the sense that as the conquerer you are representing everyone else on CC.

Those are not detailed enough. They are all circumstantial evidence, which is not enough. Can Chariot make an argument, yes u can make any argument with circumstantial evidence, but Chariot doesn't know the map very well and some of those games he listed i was actively trying to prevent Xiangwang from winning, and how is it ranching, i open a game, people are free to join, i don't actively go invite beginners to come join. I have won plenty of games without Xiangwang and he without me on the same map regardless. We just found it more of a challenge with better players. Most high ranks don't play freestyle and flatrate.

furthermore Chariot most of the examples were X/K/X or opposite, it was called courtsey since attempting to break after holding objectives is pointless. Even in game Game 7370815 as you quote - "xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win." my army was going on malta to krak to attempt to break antioch...how else am i to reach it????

Chariot most of ur examples are just circumstantial and lets think rationally, on a map with difficult settings, most people are NOT used to, does it NOT make sense that the top two ranking players with the most experience have a greater chance of winning? Our odds are not 1/8 of winning, even playing alone our odds are around 40%, so basic logic will be probability of either X or K winning is the PK+PX or 80%. Of course when u add in more experienced players, it goes down accordingly, nothing fishy, just basic logic.

Ok, Im not detailed enough apparently. I went through Game Finder to find your FINISHED Games on Third Crusade. There are 50. When CoF can pull 21 Examples out of the Hat on Third Crusade that's between 40-50% of your games Most of these games have people who are much higher rank than I am and as such much more skilled than I am.
Out of those 50, 43 of those games are played with Xiangwang (third Crusade only here). Now Take 21/43 Examples thats right around 50% percent. Now how many of us with high ranking players get to hold an objective 21x out of 43x by ourselves. Answer on the other hand is Go for GRENADA or begin your turn between 5/7 am (when you know he won't be up ) I mean Purple/Silver/ any of the other players near the objective could have taken it from him in one move before he could even start his turn.
fp'd
@xiang and they say to let dead dogs lie, but I don't think this is dead or something that just needs to be brushed over.

Not to be rude, but saying players higher ranked and more skill is not saying much after u are still a private after 900+ games. Xiangwang got almost 4000 points in under 100 games (that's including the first 10sh games where he didn't give a crap what he was doing, he won his first game at game 14 or 15). In the chain of Xiangwang's third crusade maps, his win rate without me was in 60%+. Xiangwang's best unbroken chain was winning 7 STRAIGHT 3rd crusade games in a row with 8 players without me in it (is suddenly winning 7 in a row too much and is cheating especially when it's not matched by losing 48 other games as probabilitiy would dictate?).

Games:
6733161
6743179
6747248
6787994
6787995
6802843
6838259

To say we cannot have a win rate of 50%+ on 8 player maps is absurd.

[Kiron]

Okay coordinating was not the best wording i could have used. But it's REALLY obvious when kiron goes onto CC, he doesn't bother hiding the fact he is playing in the house (aka, full screen CC on the monitor for all to see, but doesn't say i'm playing CC) and vice versa. If I know if he is going to play and there is an advantage of me going immediately i will take it and vice versa.

Playing fog games like that is forbitten for sure. Its secret diplomacy to saw your view in fog of war games.

We don't look at each others view in fog. Though it will be hard to prove we don't, you're just going to take my word (not convincing i know), but what are the remedies, players in the same household cannot play FOG games together?

[mc05025]

Okay coordinating was not the best wording i could have used. But it's REALLY obvious when kiron goes onto CC, he doesn't bother hiding the fact he is playing in the house (aka, full screen CC on the monitor for all to see, but doesn't say i'm playing CC) and vice versa. If I know if he is going to play and there is an advantage of me going immediately i will take it and vice versa.

Playing fog games like that is forbitten for sure. Its secret diplomacy to saw your view in fog of war games.

We don't look at each others view in fog. Though it will be hard to prove we don't, you're just going to take my word (not convincing i know), but what are the remedies, players in the same household cannot play FOG games together?

Of course not. I just thaought that the comment ' full screen CC on the monitor for all to see' means that you could see the map... anyway maybe it does not mean that! Not that it really matter as fog of war at these games doesn't make a big deference for good players.

[Kiron]

Okay coordinating was not the best wording i could have used. But it's REALLY obvious when kiron goes onto CC, he doesn't bother hiding the fact he is playing in the house (aka, full screen CC on the monitor for all to see, but doesn't say i'm playing CC) and vice versa. If I know if he is going to play and there is an advantage of me going immediately i will take it and vice versa.

Playing fog games like that is forbitten for sure. Its secret diplomacy to saw your view in fog of war games.

We don't look at each others view in fog. Though it will be hard to prove we don't, you're just going to take my word (not convincing i know), but what are the remedies, players in the same household cannot play FOG games together?

Of course not. I just thaought that the comment ' full screen CC on the monitor for all to see' means that you could see the map... anyway maybe it does not mean that! Not that it really matter as fog of war at these games doesn't make a big deference for good players.

We don't need to see the screen to predict where the troops and bonuses are with enough practise. It just gives us an edge against less experienced players.

[Chariot of Fire]

I don't really think that they can make an argument convincing enough for me. The OP is extremely detailed, and the fact of the matter is that the Conquerer medal is tainted by this kind of play. It's supposed to show who the best player is, not who can farm the most people without being caught. Its blatantly, done in a way that disgraces the name of risk. It not only removes the strategy from the game for the most part, its things like this that discourage others to come to the site.
Why would I come to a site where I hear that the Conquerer is someone who farms/ranches others? As said from Spiderman, "With Great Power comes great responsibility" in the sense that as the conquerer you are representing everyone else on CC.

Those are not detailed enough. They are all circumstantial evidence, which is not enough. Can Chariot make an argument, yes u can make any argument with circumstantial evidence, but Chariot doesn't know the map very well and some of those games he listed i was actively trying to prevent Xiangwang from winning, and how is it ranching, i open a game, people are free to join, i don't actively go invite beginners to come join. I have won plenty of games without Xiangwang and he without me on the same map regardless. We just found it more of a challenge with better players. Most high ranks don't play freestyle and flatrate.

furthermore Chariot most of the examples were X/K/X or opposite, it was called courtsey since attempting to break after holding objectives is pointless. Even in game Game 7370815 as you quote - "xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win." my army was going on malta to krak to attempt to break antioch...how else am i to reach it????

Chariot most of ur examples are just circumstantial and lets think rationally, on a map with difficult settings, most people are NOT used to, does it NOT make sense that the top two ranking players with the most experience have a greater chance of winning? Our odds are not 1/8 of winning, even playing alone our odds are around 40%, so basic logic will be probability of either X or K winning is the PK+PX or 80%. Of course when u add in more experienced players, it goes down accordingly, nothing fishy, just basic logic.

Your stack only got as far as Malta as you slowed down. 1" for the first hit from Vatican, followed by 4", 6" and 4". Why would you even have started your turn knowing Xiangwang held the Objective (it's not a fog game) and was still online? You threw him the game, plain and simple. Had you waited then there was every likelihood the objective could have been broken either by another player or certainly by yourself. As an experienced freestyler you above all would know this, so ignorance is no defence. To say "It was over and there was no point breaking the objective" is also no defence as it is tantamount to game throwing. Rather conveniently it seems you and your housemate are the habitual beneficiaries.

[Kiron]

I don't really think that they can make an argument convincing enough for me. The OP is extremely detailed, and the fact of the matter is that the Conquerer medal is tainted by this kind of play. It's supposed to show who the best player is, not who can farm the most people without being caught. Its blatantly, done in a way that disgraces the name of risk. It not only removes the strategy from the game for the most part, its things like this that discourage others to come to the site.
Why would I come to a site where I hear that the Conquerer is someone who farms/ranches others? As said from Spiderman, "With Great Power comes great responsibility" in the sense that as the conquerer you are representing everyone else on CC.

Those are not detailed enough. They are all circumstantial evidence, which is not enough. Can Chariot make an argument, yes u can make any argument with circumstantial evidence, but Chariot doesn't know the map very well and some of those games he listed i was actively trying to prevent Xiangwang from winning, and how is it ranching, i open a game, people are free to join, i don't actively go invite beginners to come join. I have won plenty of games without Xiangwang and he without me on the same map regardless. We just found it more of a challenge with better players. Most high ranks don't play freestyle and flatrate.

furthermore Chariot most of the examples were X/K/X or opposite, it was called courtsey since attempting to break after holding objectives is pointless. Even in game Game 7370815 as you quote - "xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win." my army was going on malta to krak to attempt to break antioch...how else am i to reach it????

Chariot most of ur examples are just circumstantial and lets think rationally, on a map with difficult settings, most people are NOT used to, does it NOT make sense that the top two ranking players with the most experience have a greater chance of winning? Our odds are not 1/8 of winning, even playing alone our odds are around 40%, so basic logic will be probability of either X or K winning is the PK+PX or 80%. Of course when u add in more experienced players, it goes down accordingly, nothing fishy, just basic logic.

Your stack only got as far as Malta as you slowed down. 1" for the first hit from Vatican, followed by 4", 6" and 4". Why would you even have started your turn knowing Xiangwang held the Objective (it's not a fog game) and was still online? You threw him the game, plain and simple. Had you waited then there was every likelihood the objective could have been broken either by another player or certainly by yourself. As an experienced freestyler you above all would know this, so ignorance is no defence. To say "It was over and there was no point breaking the objective" is also no defence as it is tantamount to game throwing. Rather conveniently it seems you and your housemate are the habitual beneficiaries.

Well go to the logs and see how many games were recovered when someone had the objective? None of these events you POINTED out is out of the ordinary and unexplained with rational responses. As I mentioned, everything you points is CIRCUMSTANTIAL which pretty much has no weight in the court of law anyways (trust me, I'm a law student )

[Chariot of Fire]

I'm sorry, but timestamps and game logs are direct evidence - nothing circumstantial about them at all. They show beyond any reasoanble doubt that there's a systematic practice between you and xiangwang of dovetailing your turns in the latter stages of the games in order that one of you achieves the objective.

I too did law. I'm no longer a student

[jltile1]

Chariot has in my opinion has a huge point ( but not always ). If you guys are so good at this map and setting why join together ? That I think is the big issue. Every one here on this site knows the games and the play and you don get objective that many times unless you have help. I think this is your best work COF. And playing in the same house in a fog game? Come on who would not look I would. Especially if one of could win.

[Kiron]

I'm sorry, but timestamps and game logs are direct evidence - nothing circumstantial about them at all. They show beyond any reasoanble doubt that there's a systematic practice between you and xiangwang of dovetailing your turns in the latter stages of the games in order that one of you achieves the objective.

I too did law. I'm no longer a student

actually, that can be explained. Latter stages of the game are more important so we spend more hours watching...it's not secret specialized freestylers spend LOTS of time watching a game, hence ur argument is circumstantial because this is the reason why I can go right after X, because i'm online when he goes because i spend lots of time online.

[Kiron]

Chariot has in my opinion has a huge point ( but not always ). If you guys are so good at this map and setting why join together ? That I think is the big issue. Every one here on this site knows the games and the play and you don get objective that many times unless you have help. I think this is your best work COF. And playing in the same house in a fog game? Come on who would not look I would. Especially if one of could win.

BC it gets boring without some challenge, when does being good at a map setting means you are to be penalized for playing it? It's not like i farm young inexperienced players or go hunt down their games. Players are free to join.

Of course u can win objective games without help. That's an absurd statement. How do you explain Xiangwang winning so many 3rd crusade games without me playing in it? Without me playing xiangwang's record in those is way over 50%.

Like i said, unless there is a rule barring housemates or anyone in RL to play fog together on opposing teams, there isn't much to be done except trust the players play honourably. Honestly, FOG doesn't even matter once ur skills are high enough, u can easily predict troops within 5 troops for first 10 turns, and within 10 after that.

[jsnyder748]

I won 14 das freestyle 8 person games in a row when I got to 4000 points. When I was trying in the summer and could watch every game like a hawk it was very easy to win 80 percent of my 8 person games. What they do is not surprising because they TRY in every game.

Also the b button thing. I can almost guarantee I have used that more than anyone else on cc. Just look at the number of objective games I have won. When it is taken by a skilled player with reliable internet I could sit here for 12 hours and still win the second its my turn. (I am not saying I have or haven't )

I was accused a while ago of using a script to win games and was cleared because 1. they couldn't prove I used one (didn't even know what one was until they told me ) 2. I told them I used greasemonkey "d" key. I set my hot key to the "d" key for begin turn instead of "b" because I like to sit with my hand at home base position. a= end turn/forts/assaults (phase) d= begin turn and f= is refresh screen. This set up is fastest for playing speed freestyle 1 v 1's and got used to the feeling.

[xiangwang]

I won 14 das freestyle 8 person games in a row when I got to 4000 points. When I was trying in the summer and could watch every game like a hawk it was very easy to win 80 percent of my 8 person games. What they do is not surprising because they TRY in every game.

Also the b button thing. I can almost guarantee I have used that more than anyone else on cc. Just look at the number of objective games I have won. When it is taken by a skilled player with reliable internet I could sit here for 12 hours and still win the second its my turn. (I am not saying I have or haven't )

I was accused a while ago of using a script to win games and was cleared because 1. they couldn't prove I used one (didn't even know what one was until they told me ) 2. I told them I used greasemonkey "d" key. I set my hot key to the "d" key for begin turn instead of "b" because I like to sit with my hand at home base position. a= end turn/forts/assaults (phase) d= begin turn and f= is refresh screen. This set up is fastest for playing speed freestyle 1 v 1's and got used to the feeling.

I agree Jsnyder. Honestly, there is so many different explanations that can explain our record and actions that we tried to already explain. Why are some people trying to look for the worst possible scenario. It's not normal to have high winning records, heck look at the first page of the scoreboard, most people win rates are 60%+ while both kiron and mine are below 50%.

[xiangwang]

I don't really think that they can make an argument convincing enough for me. The OP is extremely detailed, and the fact of the matter is that the Conquerer medal is tainted by this kind of play. It's supposed to show who the best player is, not who can farm the most people without being caught. Its blatantly, done in a way that disgraces the name of risk. It not only removes the strategy from the game for the most part, its things like this that discourage others to come to the site.
Why would I come to a site where I hear that the Conquerer is someone who farms/ranches others? As said from Spiderman, "With Great Power comes great responsibility" in the sense that as the conquerer you are representing everyone else on CC.

Those are not detailed enough. They are all circumstantial evidence, which is not enough. Can Chariot make an argument, yes u can make any argument with circumstantial evidence, but Chariot doesn't know the map very well and some of those games he listed i was actively trying to prevent Xiangwang from winning, and how is it ranching, i open a game, people are free to join, i don't actively go invite beginners to come join. I have won plenty of games without Xiangwang and he without me on the same map regardless. We just found it more of a challenge with better players. Most high ranks don't play freestyle and flatrate.

furthermore Chariot most of the examples were X/K/X or opposite, it was called courtsey since attempting to break after holding objectives is pointless. Even in game Game 7370815 as you quote - "xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win." my army was going on malta to krak to attempt to break antioch...how else am i to reach it????

Chariot most of ur examples are just circumstantial and lets think rationally, on a map with difficult settings, most people are NOT used to, does it NOT make sense that the top two ranking players with the most experience have a greater chance of winning? Our odds are not 1/8 of winning, even playing alone our odds are around 40%, so basic logic will be probability of either X or K winning is the PK+PX or 80%. Of course when u add in more experienced players, it goes down accordingly, nothing fishy, just basic logic.

Ok, Im not detailed enough apparently. I went through Game Finder to find your FINISHED Games on Third Crusade. There are 50. When CoF can pull 21 Examples out of the Hat on Third Crusade that's between 40-50% of your games Most of these games have people who are much higher rank than I am and as such much more skilled than I am.
Out of those 50, 43 of those games are played with Xiangwang (third Crusade only here). Now Take 21/43 Examples thats right around 50% percent. Now how many of us with high ranking players get to hold an objective 21x out of 43x by ourselves. Answer on the other hand is Go for GRENADA or begin your turn between 5/7 am (when you know he won't be up ) I mean Purple/Silver/ any of the other players near the objective could have taken it from him in one move before he could even start his turn.
fp'd
@xiang and they say to let dead dogs lie, but I don't think this is dead or something that just needs to be brushed over.

I don't even know how to comment on this one...well since you're a private...I assume there are lots of people higher ranks than you...and I assume based on your logic much more skilled than you. Okay...using your same logic, I am a brigadier (well my symbol anyways)...therefore I am more skilled than most of my opponents, so it would follow that I win more because I am higher ranked (not sure if there is an actual correlation considering rankings are not the best indicator based on game preferences), but how about I am more EXPERIENCED with the setting and map, therefore I win more games?

And look at the games I played WITHOUT Kiron, my win rate is still around 50%...playing with kiron doesn't mean anything...it just means if I don't win, it is likely the next player with similar or more experience on the map and setting will win...aka Kiron, or MC, or (insert high ranking player). This is called normal! Just because I don't win, why must you insist someone OTHER than Kiron should win? Kiron's win rate is also about 50%. Just because I don't win does that mean Kiron can't win and vice versa? It follows naturally that the most experience and luckier players wins. One more complex maps, flatrate and more players, luck is less of a factor, so experience have more weight. These are two sides to the same coin. When you are specifically looking for something it's called bias when in fact there really is nothing there.

Chariot's arguments makes more sense if my win rates was atrocious without kiron and vice versa and only together can we win games. But we can win games fine on our own and when playing together, it's not an anomoly if one of us don't win, the other does especially when most of the field is far less experienced players. When you throw in more high rankers, you tend to see more mix of winners like MC, jsnyder, killface, etc.

The only time a mistake happened was that deal regarding 3 outside games due to a misunderstanding of the rules as kiron already admitted was a mistake (okay that is where we can say is luck based, kiron got to go first all 3 games, where going first pretty much decides who wins!).

P.S. i'm not trying to be condescending, just trying to explain facts

[rishaed]

I don't really think that they can make an argument convincing enough for me. The OP is extremely detailed, and the fact of the matter is that the Conquerer medal is tainted by this kind of play. It's supposed to show who the best player is, not who can farm the most people without being caught. Its blatantly, done in a way that disgraces the name of risk. It not only removes the strategy from the game for the most part, its things like this that discourage others to come to the site.
Why would I come to a site where I hear that the Conquerer is someone who farms/ranches others? As said from Spiderman, "With Great Power comes great responsibility" in the sense that as the conquerer you are representing everyone else on CC.

Those are not detailed enough. They are all circumstantial evidence, which is not enough. Can Chariot make an argument, yes u can make any argument with circumstantial evidence, but Chariot doesn't know the map very well and some of those games he listed i was actively trying to prevent Xiangwang from winning, and how is it ranching, i open a game, people are free to join, i don't actively go invite beginners to come join. I have won plenty of games without Xiangwang and he without me on the same map regardless. We just found it more of a challenge with better players. Most high ranks don't play freestyle and flatrate.

furthermore Chariot most of the examples were X/K/X or opposite, it was called courtsey since attempting to break after holding objectives is pointless. Even in game Game 7370815 as you quote - "xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win." my army was going on malta to krak to attempt to break antioch...how else am i to reach it????

Chariot most of ur examples are just circumstantial and lets think rationally, on a map with difficult settings, most people are NOT used to, does it NOT make sense that the top two ranking players with the most experience have a greater chance of winning? Our odds are not 1/8 of winning, even playing alone our odds are around 40%, so basic logic will be probability of either X or K winning is the PK+PX or 80%. Of course when u add in more experienced players, it goes down accordingly, nothing fishy, just basic logic.

Ok, Im not detailed enough apparently. I went through Game Finder to find your FINISHED Games on Third Crusade. There are 50. When CoF can pull 21 Examples out of the Hat on Third Crusade that's between 40-50% of your games Most of these games have people who are much higher rank than I am and as such much more skilled than I am.
Out of those 50, 43 of those games are played with Xiangwang (third Crusade only here). Now Take 21/43 Examples thats right around 50% percent. Now how many of us with high ranking players get to hold an objective 21x out of 43x by ourselves. Answer on the other hand is Go for GRENADA or begin your turn between 5/7 am (when you know he won't be up ) I mean Purple/Silver/ any of the other players near the objective could have taken it from him in one move before he could even start his turn.
fp'd
@xiang and they say to let dead dogs lie, but I don't think this is dead or something that just needs to be brushed over.

I don't even know how to comment on this one...well since you're a private...I assume there are lots of people higher ranks than you...and I assume based on your logic much more skilled than you. Okay...using your same logic, I am a brigadier (well my symbol anyways)...therefore I am more skilled than most of my opponents, so it would follow that I win more because I am higher ranked (not sure if there is an actual correlation considering rankings are not the best indicator based on game preferences), but how about I am more EXPERIENCED with the setting and map, therefore I win more games?

And look at the games I played WITHOUT Kiron, my win rate is still around 50%...playing with kiron doesn't mean anything...it just means if I don't win, it is likely the next player with similar or more experience on the map and setting will win...aka Kiron, or MC, or (insert high ranking player). This is called normal! Just because I don't win, why must you insist someone OTHER than Kiron should win? Kiron's win rate is also about 50%. Just because I don't win does that mean Kiron can't win and vice versa? It follows naturally that the most experience and luckier players wins. One more complex maps, flatrate and more players, luck is less of a factor, so experience have more weight. These are two sides to the same coin. When you are specifically looking for something it's called bias when in fact there really is nothing there.

The only time a mistake happened was that deal regarding 3 outside games due to a misunderstanding of the rules as kiron already admitted was a mistake (okay that is where we can say is luck based, kiron got to go first all 3 games, where going first pretty much decides who wins!).

P.S. i'm not trying to be condescending, just trying to explain facts

Now you both are just distorting what I am saying here, My logic is not: its not possible b/c you are playing low level people on the contrary, If you would play me on third crusade, it would be like a vet vs. a rookie. But what I am saying here is that Its highly unlikely that playing high lvl ppl, (vets v. vets) that you/Kiron are going to win around 50% of the time by securing the objective . Its more than likely that they are familar with the map enough on how to prevent someone from holding the objective like that. In most of those games I saw mostly officers, if not all officers. Pulling it out so that you both win 21x on this map by hold the objective out of 43x IMO is an indicator that something is quite possibly fishy. And if your going to deny my logic on the fact that I'm a private, go ahead idc I play Risk for fun, and leave the competitive stuff for other games.

[Chariot of Fire]

It's not normal to have high winning records, heck look at the first page of the scoreboard, most people win rates are 60%+ while both kiron and mine are below 50%.

You have a block of 100 consecutive games (on the 8 player freestyle setting) in which you won 61 of them. I haven't even counted how many of the ones you didn't win were won by Kiron. The odds in an 8 player game are 12.5% yet you achieved 61%.

You are right, it's not normal to have high winning records and yet you recorded 488% above the norm.

As for why others on the leaderboard should have win rates of c.60% it's because they predominantly play team games where the odds start at 50% and so they are c.120% above the norm.

[SaMejoHn]

but what about the fact that (according to both kiron and xiangwang) that their record isn't better/worse when they don't play against each other? doesn't that vindicate them of allegations? Its my understanding that they are superb without each other so when playing without each other their win ratio is roughly around the same as when they are both in a game. If they are cheating wouldnt the win ratio of games together become much higher? Are they lying and the ratio spikes up noticeably in their games with each other when compared to games they each play alone?

[xiangwang]

It's not normal to have high winning records, heck look at the first page of the scoreboard, most people win rates are 60%+ while both kiron and mine are below 50%.

You have a block of 100 consecutive games (on the 8 player freestyle setting) in which you won 61 of them. I haven't even counted how many of the ones you didn't win were won by Kiron. The odds in an 8 player game are 12.5% yet you achieved 61%.

You are right, it's not normal to have high winning records and yet you recorded 488% above the norm.

As for why others on the leaderboard should have win rates of c.60% it's because they predominantly play team games where the odds start at 50% and so they are c.120% above the norm.

Using a 12.5% win rate to an experienced player on a complicated map is absurd. Okay if I am playing with MC, Kiron, and other veterans of the map who has AS much experience (just because they are officers doesn't mean they are experienced in the map, heck I would die in a doubles, triples, or quad game on an unfamiliar map vs. an experienced team). Heck look at MC, kiron, Mheggen (or whatever his name who play world 2.1 freestyle 8 players), their win rate is just as high...

Since you have so much time, how about u count how many games I had won without kiron (first 14 games doesn't count bc i didn't understand or try)? Let me know if the % changes significantly.

[xiangwang]

Actually I did the numbers for myself (give or take 2 games).

I have completed 150 games (lets say 140 since first 10 I didn't know what I was doing)

Out of 140 games, I played 130-8 player freestyle games

I have won a total of 67 games (65-8 play freestyle wins)

I played a total of 53-8 player freestyle game with kiron, which I only won 15 (28%)

So out of my 77 freestyle games without Kiron, I won 38 (49%).

Heck, if anything playing with Kiron hurt my odds lol! I play better without him! Playing with Kiron almost halved my odds, which makes perfect sense considering I have a stronger challenger!

Also looked, between the 53 8 man freestyle games we played together (from my last 140 games), 33 of them won by kiron or me. Since I won 15, Kiron was 18 giving Kiron a win rate of 34%. I'm not going to go through Kiron's win rate, but lets say it's waay higher than 34% (I would predict mid 50s). If anything, playing with each other hurts our individual chances of winning. Our combined win rate is about 62%, well yeah, take two 50% players together (usually you expect 75%), but accounting for errors AND we face one less player, you get 62%, well within normal reasoning.


edit: doing quick count (off up to 3 games)
Kiron played 183 8 freestyle man games (though he did get DQed from 4 when we pulled the multi prank) so 179 for its sake.

126 games without me and 53 with me.

kiron got 94 wins in 8 player.

He played 53 games with me and had 18 wins or 34%

Kiron played 126 games without me and had 76 wins or 60%.


So basically, Kiron alone does better than playing with me.
So basically, we don't gain any significant advantage when we play together.

[Donelladan]

I think debatting how much game they should win or not is totally useless. Of course, 3rd cruisade freestyle, experience players against low rank, they may have very high percentage of win, even without cheating. I think no one could say they are not both very good player.
As they said, even when they dont play together they have a very high percentage of wins.

The problem is both of them playing together is giving them an unfair advantages because they are friends.

Btw I think housemate should not be allow to play game together if not team game. I could totally create another accound, saying he is my housemate, and be playing tons of fog game together, winning almost all.

But even if you were NOT housemate, being friends and playing games together the way you did was kind of cheating ( maybe not so intentional, but yet it is). Since the fact of being friends gave you an unfair advantage ( playing turns at the same time and making less effort of preventing any of you of winning).

[Tenebrus]

LOL. First of all they are not roomates.

As I have played many games with both of them I think I know better that anyone how they are playing and in addition I know how to play third crusade freestyle. So from my experience these two players are playing very well and I am not really surprised from their score.

But they do play very friendly to each other. For exmple they are ready to backstub anyone to gain an advandage but never each other. If one can not win he is helping the other one a lot. On the other side I have never notice at my games a clear pass of the game to each other even if it might have happened when I am not in.

At the last game with them they helped each other so much that I told them that they are cheating and I will not play again with both of them at the same time.

But it is completely imposible to provide evidence for two reasons

a) there was fog
b) what they were doing was not extremely obvious. A weak player might have done the same not in purpose but just because he is not playing well. But from my experience of how good their gameplay is I know that when someone couldn't win he was helping the other in purpose and not because he does not know how to play

I was hoping someone who played a lot with them, and was really good on the map would weigh in. I think that's a really good summary of what's going on. I did a bit of data-mining on win percentages and the two of them win two thirds of 8 player games where they both play. That's high, but I checked it against their individual win rates when they are not playing together and although there's a bit of an uplift, it's probably not enough to say statistically that something really odd is going on (although the games where they both play tend to have more skilled players in so you would expect the win ration to drop rather than rise but that's really circumstantial - Kiron has a run of games with a *lot* of new recruits but that's a different thread, and it doesn't happen any more).

I think this is a really difficult problem to solve, and almost inevitable when two good friends play together - especially in fog games on complex maps where peeking at your mate's screen is going to give you a huge advantage. And I trust mc05025 when he says that there are subtle differences in how they play which give them marginal advantages.

If it was my ruling, I don't think I'd punish them - the evidence isn't quite there (it's easy to cherrypick games and make them look suspicious - especially foggy games on complicated maps), but I would bar them from playing together again. People won't trust it, and these kind of things have the real potential to poison the atmosphere for players - when a new conqueror should really be a good thing. If you guys love playing, it's not that much of an imposition and it will set everyone's minds at rest.

[betiko]

bottom line here is that you guys shouldn't be allowed to continue playing in the same game with those settings. Maybe mods can give you a noted/warning and ask you not to be in the same game if you guys decide to play those settings. or just play this 4 teams doubles freestyle 3rd crusade, I'm sure you guys would be very good at it. I see no prob in coordinating your turns being dubs partners.

[Seulessliathan]

just saved for the record

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=187039&start=24

LOL. First of all they are not roomates.

As I have played many games with both of them I think I know better that anyone how they are playing and in addition I know how to play third crusade freestyle.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=187039&start=33

We have ALWAYS maintained that we are housemates (or roommates, is there a difference?).

Anyone beside me who fears at least one of these statements might be a wrong?

IF they are roommates and ALWAYS maintained so, how can it be that a player who claims to know them and who had played many games with them doesn´t know they are roommates?
IF they are NOT roommates, why does Kiron say so?