Ishihara and phantomzero [cleared] BG

[Lindax]

IMO, ID and FOED have always been very cool with each other so this accusation from a member of FOED takes me by surprise and is disappointing to say the least.

Many people avoid 3 player games for a reason.

It's a tournament game and started as a 4-player game.

Lx

[Ishihara]

First off, I'd like to start by saying that I'm not upset with uckuki for posting a C&A - it's within any player's right to do so, and our staff of mods seem to me to do a pretty good job going through these... I've only had 9 games against him, but as you can see from my 5 star opponent rating of him (quick & friendly tags too!), I have had no personal issues with him...

I'll start with the game chat/log:

2012-05-08 23:17:29 - uckuki eliminated nebsmith from the game in round - 13
2012-05-08 23:17:40 - uckuki played a set of vR7- Cherkassy, vB6- Lvov, and V2- Limoges worth 50 troops

after this, phantom cashes and I cash, and we both run through him pretty good to sort of even out the map... on his next turn, uckuki cashes again and returns the favor... a couple more rounds of smaller drops and more back and forth, and then:

2012-05-13 23:24:28 - uckuki played a set of V4- Lyon, M3- Mozhaysk, and B3- General Friessner worth 70 troops
2012-05-13 23:24:38 - uckuki deployed 82 troops on ?

and from game chat:
2012-05-13 23:26:27 - uckuki: don't get confused and attack each other by mistake brave warriors
2012-05-13 23:28:09 - uckuki: can one of you guys kind of wink to let me know you're playing together so I stop wasting my time?
2012-05-14 08:28:26 - phantomzero: lol. this is why i love 3 ways
2012-05-14 20:34:11 - Ishihara: good lord... I've been traveling to visit family and didn't even think of that dynamic...
2012-05-14 20:35:01 - Ishihara: well, poor choice of who to eliminate first there, uckuki... *lol*
2012-05-14 20:35:29 - Ishihara: to be honest, I felt I kinda screwed myself by playing so much in one corner and having everything just be ?'s until I made that run...
2012-05-14 20:39:18 - Ishihara [self]: snapshot round 17
2012-05-14 20:39:37 - Ishihara: well, that didn't show me much...
2012-05-15 13:15:41 - uckuki: yellow was ok target, I just had to guess where his stacks might be (couldn't see them). If I did, I'd have had 50+ troops to go after you.
2012-05-16 15:23:09 - Ishihara: I know that eventually the cashes will be big enough that someone will fall... but to be honest, I'm still enough of a noob around here that I have zero idea how to even try to finish it... *lol*

of which there are two things I should say: first, in retrospect, a pretty dumb joke about his choice of who to eliminate first... pretty obvious now how that could be taken out of context... and as to my noob comment, I was referring to my experience on WW2 Europe - 2 dubs, 2 trips and 2 quads games - no singles experience... again, not very clear on my part, for which I apologize...

which brings us to round 18... Phantom goes first, drops 7 +1 and cards off me (giving him 5 cards)... I'm up next and have to cash at 5 cards... I know where the majority, but not all of phantom is (the obvious target at this point)... counting troops, and given the one-way paths and need to both split my drop and go search for some unseen blue, I determined that I probably couldn't kill Phantom... so I opted for lots of 2's, some stacks and the breaking of uckuki's +6 bonus... and when I did break the +6, I found the large stack... given the turn order of the game, I decided that it was in my best long term interests, having already broken his +6 (and most of Phantom's bonuses), to take the attackers dice and be aggressive and hit the stack... at this stage of the game, I was going to get to 3 cards before phantom and him given the turn order, so I thought it in my best interest to play aggressively and hope for good card fortune... for those interested, here's a link to my screenshot at the end of round 18 - where I am on the map may help explain why I did what I did the last few rounds (no peeking phantom and uckuki - got it?)...

I hope this helps to clear up at least why I have done what I have to (hopefully) put myself in a position to win eventually...

round 18 map

Edited to make that a direct link/larger image

[agentcom]

Hey guys, just wanted to commend the civil and logical discussion that has been going on here. I haven't looked at the case enough myself to have any opinion worth noting, but it's nice to see that people can get along even if they're opposite parties in a C&A thread.

[lordhaha]

hello all

if any of the comments I wrote have made people feel hurt that wasn't my intention at all. on other hand,
how do you call someone a cheater without pointing a finger? to correct Mud: I did call them cheaters
because that's the subject of this topic, but I did not call them stupid, but being treated like I'm the stupid one.
if 'shitty behavior' reference isn't appropriate, lets substitute it with ... mischievous?

the primary purpose of my post was to vent out the frustration. still, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. red's move
just didn't make sense. I don't see how he could benefit from it, unless there's some grand strategy I haven't
heard of. maybe they aren't cheating? maybe red is acting subliminally, I don't know? it's impossible for me
to have a smoking gun and my accusation is based solely on the actions in the game. red can do whatever he
thinks might advance his chances, but he shouldn't advances other player's chances. that sort of behavior
kills the game. I hope I'm wrong about it. for me the winning is secondary to having a good and unpredictable game.

I know 3 way games can be nasty, often there's no other way to go about it. right now, I'm playing in an all maps
tourney with 3 players and each game we go guns blazing, each of us getting bloodied and so far none of us complained
once. moreover, I want it that way because the few games where we did slow down ended up in stalemates. so, I
have no problem with 3 way game being messy, they should be.

Sounds like second thoughts to me....go have a beer and forget about it.

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[Lindax]

Update

Ive went through the log at least 10 times now.

I dont feel comfortable making a decision one way or the other until the game is over and the fog is lifted.

Until then, Im going to leave this pending.

And Agentcom is right, this thread has been extremely civil. Very nice for a change.

What a pity that felt the need to write those last 3 words: "....for a change".

Lx

[Squirly]

IMO, ID and FOED have always been very cool with each other so this accusation from a member of FOED takes me by surprise and is disappointing to say the least.

Many people avoid 3 player games for a reason.

It's a tournament game and started as a 4-player game.

Lx

OK, thanks for pointing this out.
My disappointment in the accusation stands though.

to me, a pm from the OP to both PZ & Ishi would have been the respectful place to start this instead of a public accusation.
or how about waiting for the fog to lift b/f making assumptions about players strategy and motive?

[hwhrhett]

hell naw!!! you guys shouldnt be disappointed!!!! if your a good player and you play enough games eventually youll be accused of cheating, it happens to everybody right? ive been accused dozens of times!! mostly in the early days by people that didnt understand freestyle, but still.....

Wear it like a badge of honor, you are now part of the cool club...

[phantomzero]

Im still away travelling but i too am glad this has remained civil. FOED have been my second favourite clan for ages and i know our two clans have a deep respect for each other. in fact that's why im so disappointed at this accusation. A pm or something would have been a better first action my opinion. i hate three way gamessage when they come to this as they often do on large maps as the troop deploy even with escalation don't make a big difference. its also a foggy game that makes it tough to know how stobg opponents are.

[Ishihara]

ok, this game has finished... if there is anything I can do to help expedite the proceedings (account access, etc), just let me know...

Ishi

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[Squirly]

Too bad PZ & Ishi's names had to be prominently displayed in this forum for 2 weeks though.

[MudPuppy]

No harm, no foul. uckuki had every right to have his suspicions investigated by the mods. Given the fog, it was perfectly reasonable for BG to keep it pending until he could better see how it all played out. I think the right decision was made & the system worked exactly as it should.