Conquer Club

Evidently there is a lot wrong with the process of changing maps without any real discussion.

How is it one or two people can make an opinion about a map and it gets changed because no one else know there is a supposed discussion going on about a map that has already left beta?

Clandemonium has now been changed without warning (at least for the 1v1)

There is something seriously wrong with the power trip natty dread is offering up as an excuse to why this happens

viewtopic.php?f=358&t=105692&start=1425

We have a home page with headlines for a reason--I check it out usually at least once a week

I would think changing a map without any real discussion or warning after it has been quenched should be a real issue.

The map idea came from Blitz who was not even made aware of the change.

If one or two people have this much power just to do whatever they want to maps-- CC will lose even more paying customers--totally ridiculous

Highlander, I completely agree with you. There was a discussion going on about the lugger neutrals in the Treasures of Galapagos map. Not sure if the neutrals where changed as I have not played the map in a long while. But this is the least that should of been done. A thread set up and a proper discussion with everybody involved with the map included.

The only reason I noticed the changes being talked about is because I spend more time here in the foundry than in the tournaments section now but for players who play the map a lot, this might of come as a bit of a shock to see the changes.

There should be a proper period of discussion that goes on and a return to beta (the same as if graphics are changed).

One map gets changed without discussion, and suddenly it's a "problem with the foundry"... aren't you blowing this out of proportion just a tiny bit?

I mean, it's an isolated incident. Sure, sometimes the foundry messes up, we're only people here. But one mistake doesn't mean the whole system is broken.

Here's an analogy... let's say you forget to send invites to one tournament on time. Or you send the invites to the wrong people or something. You've always handled your previous tournaments well but this time you mess up somehow. Should I then go over the tournaments forum and start a thread on how there's a huge problem with the tournament system? Should I start shouting left and right how CC will lose customers unless HA gets his shit together?

You expect the foundry to run perfectly all the time, but any system involving humans is imperfect. If you want to make it better, there's only one way - participate in the process, keep an eye on map threads and offer your opinion honestly, without shouting or being purposefully antagonizing.

OK, let me try to solve this issue, that it's not an issue.
It's just much ado about nothing imo...this because what it's happening it's exactly how the foundry is supposed to work.

Now, let me start from the beginning:

On 25th Aug 2011 ben79 suggested to change the map and add a limit to starting positions: viewtopic.php?f=358&t=105692&start=1395#p3329269

On 27th Aug 2011 Kabanellas, the mapmakers who hold the imagery rights on the map agreed with the idea.
In the same day was asked to me to apply that change (I don't have the pm anymore sorry)

For 4 months, no one went here to said the opposite and moreover again for 4 months I totally forgot to change the map as it was requested to me.
So you (HA) can't say there wasn't a public discussion since the thread was there and you were able to post and discuss.
The issue you have is what we live all days of our life, no one on this site care about maps except mapmakers. Everyone on this site thinks maps fall from the sky. So tell me, why I have to make an announcement for a so small change when nobody cares?

The mapmaker asked me to do a thing, he has the right to do that because it own his map, nobody complained for 4 months and now there's a so big fuss for a such small thing that anyone here knows that can be solved easily?

You know what is the problem? The problem is that what is happening now is what should happen all time, people discussing about maps (not talking about you HA, I see you post sometimes here ).
What I see now it's the foundry process, we did something, the people don't like it, we change it back again.

About the fact the map was quenched, it doesn't matter. Where is written we (or moreover the mapmaker) can't change it again? THe purpose of the process is to produce the best possible maps for this site, just that, it doesn't matter at what stage the map is. If something can be improved and the mapmaker is willing to improve it....why he should improve his own map?

I understand your point about making an announcement, but as said previously few on this site care about the forum, more less care about the foundry....so we did it......it's wrong? it doesn't work? ok we will change it back, np.....we did wrong things sometimes....we're a sort of artists...we love experimenting and try...like you love to try something when it's related with tournaments.
Afterall I think it happened also to you to organized a shitty tournament? You failed, that's ok, it happens sometimes....the next one was better and you didn't do that mistake again.

In the foundry is the same, we tried, it sucks...ok now we know that the max positions didn't work with this map.
So please don't complain about a small problem like it was the whole process the issue. Just that. Becuase imo the issue is exactly the people that don't visit the foundry threads to tell us we're doing good or not with a X map.

Now that I took the defense of my mapmakers and also of my Team, let me state clear that i sent a PM to blitzaholic to apologize about not saying to him about the changes. In this case there was a misunderstanding between Kabanellas and myself. I thought he had sent a pm to Blitz so when I received the go ahead from Kab i did the changes. But again I posted them in the first post of the map thread, did a post on the map thread to be sure that Kab will notice it and then I sent them to Lack.

It's a circle, it's up to the people come here and check the map thread, not up to the makers to spread around the voice he is changing his own map. Like it is happening now.

Anyway don't worry, i think the map will be changed back to the old version by the end of the day.

Let me know if you want discuss something else, or if there's something in my post that is not clear.

Nobodies

thenobodies80 wrote:If you're going to post to complain about the change about this map, please take a look here --> viewtopic.php?f=127&t=160307&p=3509315#p3509315

I don't want to complain any more, but I do want to answer some of the points that were made along the way, so I'll try to c+p from the other thread without making too much of a mess.

natty_dread wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:Then, a single person complained about it (and not even eloquently or in great detail) and for some inexplicable reason based on that ONE incoherent complaint, the map was changed?

Sucks but what can you do? None of you people are showing up in the foundry to give any feedback anymore, so we, the mapmakers, have to go by what we get.

If you would give feedback regularly, instead of only showing up when you want to complain about something, then maybe we wouldn't have to be guessing what people want, based on a single person's feedback.

I know I don't visit the foundry often, but I do when I can.

My first priority is my tournaments, and I take my tournaments just as seriously as you take your maps. I don't do an awful lot of mill-run tournaments -- a good two thirds of them are creative efforts with complex stories and challenging scorekeeping systems that result in me doing more work than I really need to, but I'm a perfectionist and I agonize over every missed comma just as you agonize over making a river 2 pixels shorter.

Me second priority is the newsletter, and since it's an official position I feel I should take it seriously, even if some days it bores me to tears.

My third priority is playing my games -- and that's already saying a lot, that I come to a gaming site and playing games is third on my priority list.

My fourth priority is everything else, including all the forums. I do try to drop into the foundry and offer some feedback now and then, but you're right: it's thin and sporadic. But what can I say? Time is finite; I can't be everywhere and do everything. To keep track of all the many maps and all of their threads takes someone who makes the foundry his first priority. An occasional visitor can only hope to skim the surface of all there is to see here.

And it's unfair to say that I only stop in to complain. It's true that I have said several negative things in the foundry, but I've also said some positive things, and although I haven't been keeping score, I suspect that they're pretty even, maybe even tilted towards the positive side.

pamoa wrote:wow it's hot in here
maybe my humble opinion could help
as mapmaker when I had some major change issue
I used to pm all the main contributor to my map thread
eventually 2 or 3 dropped in and gave me more feedback
very useful and reassuring

This, I think, is a great idea. Obviously minor changes can't all be headlined or blessed with big announcements, but a quick PM to poeple who commented previously would be a great start.

thenobodies80 wrote:On 25th Aug 2011 ben79 suggested to change the map and add a limit to starting positions: viewtopic.php?f=358&t=105692&start=1395#p3329269

On 27th Aug 2011 Kabanellas, the mapmakers who hold the imagery rights on the map agreed with the idea.
In the same day was asked to me to apply that change (I don't have the pm anymore sorry)

For 4 months, no one went here to said the opposite and moreover again for 4 months I totally forgot to change the map as it was requested to me.

I don't know what I was doing on August 25th, but I was probably working, because I was working a really tough job back then which allowed me very little free time. If and when I logged in that day, I probably just ran through my turns in great haste and logged off, unless there was a newsletter deadline that day, in which case I probably slapped together an article or two in great haste and logged off.

Since that time, I've visited the foundry quite a few times, but I probably didn't notice that thread, because by then it was no longer the most recent thread. Since I don't have time to read all the threads in the foundry, I usually just take the top 2 or 3 most recent and I try to do a decent job reading those.

The first time I actually noticed this was on Dec. 2nd, when grifftron posted, and his post brought it up to the most recent thread.

thenobodies80 wrote:It's a circle, it's up to the people come here and check the map thread, not up to the makers to spread around the voice he is changing his own map. Like it is happening now.

Strictly speaking, that may be true, but I really hope everybody noticed pamoa's comment, because I think if everybody followed that system it would go a long way to preventing problems like this.

natty_dread wrote:I mean, it's an isolated incident. Sure, sometimes the foundry messes up, we're only people here. But one mistake doesn't mean the whole system is broken.

Absolutely true. There was a problem, problems happen all the time with all systems. The foundry isn't broken, and even if I don't always like what you guys do, I can't dispute that overall some beautiful products come from this place.

Chipv once made a tool that allowed to post into every active game of a map, but lackattack banned the use of it or something... which sucks, because it would have been a great way to notify people who play a map a lot about changes.

I don't see why such tool couldn't be allowed if it's use was restricted to only such situations.

natty_dread wrote:Chipv once made a tool that allowed to post into every active game of a map, but lackattack banned the use of it or something... which sucks, because it would have been a great way to notify people who play a map a lot about changes.

I don't see why such tool couldn't be allowed if it's use was restricted to only such situations.

This is true, at least the concept....it wasn't really banned but i was asked to not go in that way.
I agree that a tool like that is dangerous, but since I'm directly involved in the upload process i asked the permission to have that tool to use it when i send the files to lackattack.
I didn't asked to spread it aruond for everyone, but just have it for me and to use it only when i'm going to send the files to Lackattack.
As said i was asked to use headlines , although i still think not everyone see them, on the contrary 99% of players check the chat before taking their turns.

Maybe i can ask again, for now let me say we're working to make the final part of the process quicker and smoother. It's not going to happen tomorrow...but it shouldn't be also so far

Nobodies

I do tend to over react. But it seems like if you don't "over-react" things don't get done.

I know how much you all do and really appreciate it (believe that or not)

I try to stay involved as much as I can. If nothing is wrong with a map I don't give it too much input--I myself will try and stay a little more involved with the map making process and the beta process this new year, but with tourneys and games my time is limited on CC.

I still believe the significant change in a map that has quenched should not occur without a more detailed process on how changes like that occur.

Like I have said previously, the HOME tab has announcements on it-at least that is a good way to let a lot of people know what needs to be discussed.

I personally look over at that tab when signing on at least once a day--also the facebook feed on the first page opens my eyes to things going on. These could be good avenues to wake people up to the foundry.

Hope everyone has a Happy New Year

That's fine HA, as said I really appreciate you come here to discuss. And I'll take into account your words in the future.

Have you here around let me think about my desire to see more tournament organizer around in the foundry. This is something I ever want.
If only you all come here to say us things like: Hey why not to create this map? we can organize this type of tournaments if you do that!......for me this is a dream, a cross dept work to develope great map for great tournaments....unfortunately I never found a real way to "accomplish this mission"

thenobodies80 wrote:That's fine HA, as said I really appreciate you come here to discuss. And I'll take into account your words in the future.

Have you here around let me think about my desire to see more tournament organizer around in the foundry. This is something I ever want.
If only you all come here to say us things like: Hey why not to create this map? we can organize this type of tournaments if you do that!......for me this is a dream, a cross dept work to develope great map for great tournaments....unfortunately I never found a real way to "accomplish this mission"

I am mainly a 1v1 player and I find many many maps are great for tourneys--but I think what you are saying is come up with a map that works as a tournament map along with great play. Those soccer maps were kind of like that if you ask me. PM me a little more of what you are thinking about and maybe I can think of some good ideas.

Why not make a link to the map thread from the playable map?

Unless you already frequent the foundry, its sort of a PITA to find where the beta/quenched map threads are. I bet if there was a small link or button the actual game page that said "Map Feedback" a LOT more people would visit the map and give their opinions.

You could even use this space for special circumstances like this or Asia, where the link would give notice of a proposed change.
This way it is targeted at the people who regularly play the map, rather than having to make a broad announcement.

But even just a link to the map thread would help a lot of these issues, imo.

lostatlimbo wrote:Why not make a link to the map thread from the playable map?

Unless you already frequent the foundry, its sort of a PITA to find where the beta/quenched map threads are. I bet if there was a small link or button the actual game page that said "Map Feedback" a LOT more people would visit the map and give their opinions.

You could even use this space for special circumstances like this or Asia, where the link would give notice of a proposed change.
This way it is targeted at the people who regularly play the map, rather than having to make a broad announcement.

But even just a link to the map thread would help a lot of these issues, imo.

I believe the API already stores links to the map threads. This is actually something I want to see as well (and believe it has been suggested before) and shouldn't be difficult to implement. It would give more CC gamers an avenue into the foundry and raise awareness of where maps actually come from. Something simple like:

"Click 'here' to check out Feudal War map development thread."

Under the map ingame would be great.

The link to the map thread is definitely available, as it appears on the popup (lightbox?) version of the map from the Browse Maps page. The best thing would be if the link on the in-game page had an "unread posts" icon like the forum page, letting you know that something is up.

ender516 wrote:The link to the map thread is definitely available, as it appears on the popup (lightbox?) version of the map from the Browse Maps page. The best thing would be if the link on the in-game page had an "unread posts" icon like the forum page, letting you know that something is up.

Good call. I would support something like this.

So this button would be on all maps or just the ones that are having changes being discussed?

that map was quenched so i stopped following it. i really don't have time to come here to read "great map, you map makers are awesome".

natty_dread wrote:Chipv once made a tool that allowed to post into every active game of a map, but lackattack banned the use of it or something... which sucks, because it would have been a great way to notify people who play a map a lot about changes.

I don't see why such tool couldn't be allowed if it's use was restricted to only such situations.

i remember that and thought it was great.

ender516 wrote:The link to the map thread is definitely available, as it appears on the popup (lightbox?) version of the map from the Browse Maps page. The best thing would be if the link on the in-game page had an "unread posts" icon like the forum page, letting you know that something is up.

i started a tournament series, Best At Beta, to give your maps extensive 1v1 play. 45 games for each player with Escalating, Flat and Nuclear spoils. giving my participents the ability to easily jump into the conversation should be a priority. and anyone else who plays on the map would be good too.



anyhow, i thought the answer to "What is wrong with the Foundry --?????????" would be 'this is where Victor Sullivan hangs out'

greenoaks wrote:"What is wrong with the Foundry --?????????" would be 'this is where Victor Sullivan hangs out'

He is not just here, he is everywhere.

As for the idea of the thread link in the game or having the idea of a headline, a map changes after beta so infrequently, it seems so much effort for so little.

OMG

another topic with the same 4 people fighting over something!

I see a discussion not a fight, so grifftron if you don't have something useful to add to a discussion or what you read don't please you, just skip this thread and don't post.

Anyway, I think that the original topic has come to a conclusion here. I lock this one to prevent we derail in a totally offtopic discussion. If someone has ideas or wants to discuss how to highlight maps on the gamepage is free to start a new topic in the foundry discussion forum.

Thanks

Nobodies

[LOCKED]