[Split] CC Dispatch [Issue 58: 01-11-2011] Pandering to You!

[natty dread]

Koontz, the iron cross is not the same as the swastika.

[Qwert]

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[ender516]

@ qwert: As you have determined, the swastika is not illegal in North America, but lackattack has made a personal decision for his business to restrict its use.

@ koontz1973: The Confederate Southern Cross flag is visible on the American Civil War map as a background image right next to New York, underneath the Abraham Lincoln quotation.

To all: another fine issue of the CC Dispatch.

[Qwert]

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[ender516]

I suppose I should state that I cannot speak for lackattack in this matter. I was merely expressing my opinion based on what I have seen posted throughout the forums regarding this matter. I would presume that he thought that the swastika was offensive to many people and decided to restrict its use here.

It is admirable that you can rise above any personal feelings against the swastika for the sake of historically accurate symbolism on your maps, qwert. However, many people see it as the symbol of the perpetrators of the Holocaust during WWII and may find it horrific in any context.

[Royal Panda]

Have to say I don't think any symbol should be censored. The swastika (not a Nazi creation) was the symbol of that army, and does NOT represent or condone what they did. I think it's been long enough now to be able to use it.

I agree with qwert that if the swastika is banned, so too should the hammer and sickle. That was the symbol of an army that committed acts just as horrific as Nazism.

[Qwert]

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[natty dread]

Fun historical fact:

The swastika was the symbol of the Finnish Air Force long before Nazis used it.

[Royal Panda]

qwert, I think it all speaks volumes about where this site is run and by who. What is banned is what is offensive most to the Americans. Such as words as well.

However, I don't think it's a conversation that will get far in this thread. I'll happily participate in a debate in the correct forum

[Qwert]

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[isaiah40]

The Battle Flag of the Confederacy-ban or not ban-black people consider these flag offensive.

Not totally true, there are a lot of blacks that don't find it offensive.

[DiM]

The Battle Flag of the Confederacy-ban or not ban-black people consider these flag offensive.

Not totally true, there are a lot of blacks that don't find it offensive.

just like there are a lot of jews that don't find the swastika offensive if the context is appropriate

as long as various symbols are used in good taste and for historical purposes with no hidden propaganda there's no need for censorship.

[Dukasaur]

Fun historical fact:

The swastika was the symbol of the Finnish Air Force long before Nazis used it.

It was the symbol of a lot of things before the Nazis appropriated it and gave it a bad name. One bad apple can make the whole basket stink.

i dont know what its correct forum here in CC, and like in last development,lack only listen what its good for hes ears, for all what its not good he become deaf.
Its will be good that lack participiate in these debate to find solution,for these censorship. Also will be good to hear why are people offended.
I watch many WWII Movies,and i never brake mine TV,because movies are not created to glorify Nazy. Just need to open people to see things from historical perspective, and not to use political censorship. US and Canada law see these diferences,why will lack be above country law?

It's sometimes just easier to steer clear of controversies than to try to defend your point of view. Especially if you're running a business: you can spend hours and hours explaining to people that the phallic symbol on your desk is an honoured Mayan religious artifact, or you can just refrain from putting it there and leave people's attention on the business at hand. If you were running a business, which would you choose?

I don't completely agree with the decision, but I certainly understand it.

[Qwert]

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[natty dread]

Democracy is a political system where each citizen of a certain age gets to vote if they A) get fucked by the guy on the left or B) get fucked by the guy on the right.

[Victor Sullivan]

Good thing the U.S. is a republic!

Anywho, please keep the conversation related to the issue.

-Sully

[General Brock II]

Koontz, the iron cross is not the same as the swastika.

And what offense could the Confederate battle flag possibly cause? There's no correlation between a Civil War between the States and the tyranny of an evil dictator who used an emblem to symbolize an elite Aryan race, thereby marginalizing any minorities that he happened to dislike.

edit: I do not see how African Americans can possibly view the Confederate battle standard as offensive. The slaves were slaves under the Stars and Stripes - is that flag not offensive? The Confederate battle flag was never the official flag of the C.S.A, but rather a naval ensign and battle flag for a few Confederate Army units, which were composed of God fearing, honest and valiant soldiers.

Yes, the Confederates fought, in part, to prevent the abolition of slavery, but their battle standard didn't symbolize anything more than the thirteen Southern States that ceceded.

If we were to ban a Confederate flag, should it not be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Confe ... 4_1865.svg ?

But, as it is, African American regiments had the right to fight against the Confederates - it was their honour. Would anybody like to hide the achievements of their ancestors in defeating the Confederates and thereby abolishing slavery?

[Qwert]

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[Victor Sullivan]

[Split and Moved] to Foundry Discussions.

-Sully

[Victor Sullivan]

Thought I'd save a few before they all disappeared Come on now, qwert, this isn't helping you or anyone else.

hammer and sickle and red star are banned in Hungary,Lithuania and Poland ,its considered the symbol of a "totalitarian and criminal ideology,"
Kurdish flag are banned in Turkey.

Rising sun flag(here you can see double standard by western powers).When Japan was defeated in August 1945, the flag was banned by Allied Occupation authorities. However with the re-establishment of a Self-Defense Force the flag was re-adopted in 1954.

This flag is considered offensive in East Asian countries, specifically in China and the Koreas,[3][4], as it is considered to be associated with Japanese militarism and Japanese imperialism during World War II. It is sometimes seen at sporting events and protests by right-wing groups.
Japan are ally with USA,and you can use these war flag?????

The Battle Flag of the Confederacy-ban or not ban-black people consider these flag offensive.

Tibet Flag-banned in mainland china- i dont find that its banned in US.

Palestinian Flag are banned to use in East Jerusalem together with all other symbols of Palestinian sovereignty in the city, and the flag's use by Arab citizens of Israel in internal Israeli demonstrations is extremely unpopular in Israel

Sahrawi flag-prohibited in Moroco

South vietnamense flag(crazy paradox)
Some Vietnamese Americans have recently lobbied many city and state governments to make the former South Vietnamese flag instead of the current flag of Vietnam the symbol of Vietnamese in the United States, a move which raised objections from the Vietnamese government. Their efforts resulted in the California and Ohio state governments enacting legislations to adopt that flag in August 2006. From February 2003 to January 2006, in the USA, 9 States, 3 Counties and 76 Cities have adopted Resolutions recognizing the yellow flag as the Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag.

In Vietnam these flag are prohibited, but for Vietnamense-Americans,Current flag of Republic of Vietnam its very offensive flag.
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well these is only small exampless.
Consider that all these flags( properly used,including swastika) are not banned in US, and Canada, then lack need to decide to lift ban,or to create censorship MODS, who will any complain demand from people apply.
If you create Korea War map, then i see that Korean People can demand removal of Norther Korea Flag or symbols from map.Same with vietnam war,Vietnamese-Americans can demand removal Vietnam,Vietkong or Vietmine flag from Map.
Personaly,any flag used in historical concept need to be free for use, otherwise you go against laws and first amedmend of USA Law.

i dont know what its correct forum here in CC, and like in last development,lack only listen what its good for hes ears, for all what its not good he become deaf.
Its will be good that lack participiate in these debate to find solution,for these censorship. Also will be good to hear why are people offended.
I watch many WWII Movies,and i never brake mine TV,because movies are not created to glorify Nazy. Just need to open people to see things from historical perspective, and not to use political censorship. US and Canada law see these diferences,why will lack be above country law?

i dont understand,because there is no any official explanation, like to arrest people and put hem on jail,withouth proper explanation,because you are chief here.
Its a bad decision,but like some people say earlier,these here its not democraty, and if someone from mods or lack dont like you,can kick you very easy from site withouth any explanation.

And then what its democraty? I live in socialistic country,and we switch to democraty, and i assume that people can express everything what they want, withouth censorship,or maybe im wrong?

general brock,if you read what they wrote"some people get offended,and lack put ban" We dont know what people,but if you move with these logic,i belive that Lack will react in same way ,so if some unknown people find Confederate flag to be offended,then Lack need to apply same with these people who ancestory suffer in slavery.

For me these is nonsence,and its not forbiden, to use symbols in appropriate way,like we use here in CC. US and Canadian Law show that use of symbols ,in way who are not glorify these symbols, are accepted, but Lack have some reasons, what we dont know. Its will be good for everybody to have conversation and discusion, what will help to find solution for these.
Pretending that all these evend never hepend,and censoring all symbol historicaly related,are bad decision,and then you have situation,when some people denial that crime hepend,because you hide facts.
For me its cristal clear that Nazi Germany exist, they start war, they comit crimes,then use symbols for flags and military ensigh, they lost war, and they punished for all these. These is historical facts,and i present these in mine maps. Now someone need to censoring mine maps,because some people are offended?

-Sully

[koontz1973]

Koontz, the iron cross is not the same as the swastika.

And I never said they where the same as each other.

@ qwert: As you have determined, the swastika is not illegal in North America, but lackattack has made a personal decision for his business to restrict its use.

@ koontz1973: The Confederate Southern Cross flag is visible on the American Civil War map as a background image right next to New York, underneath the Abraham Lincoln quotation.

To all: another fine issue of the CC Dispatch.

It was pointed out to me after I wrote it. But when you consider that after playing many games on that map, and looking at it off and on over the last 3/4 years, I had never noticed it. That was the point with the Gettysberg map being the first one where it is clearly vissable.

The Battle Flag of the Confederacy-ban or not ban-black people consider these flag offensive.

Not totally true, there are a lot of blacks that don't find it offensive.

And here are a lot that do!

Glad to see the article has been carried on in debate as this is an issue that does need to be discussed. While keeping personal opinions out of the article, I do find it strange and silly to ban a symbol because of a reason and not have it acted apon previous maps. You cannot say this symbol is offensive and therefore ban it while allowing existing works to keep it. Should anything be banned, NO, if it is in the right context. A second world war map should be allowed to use it, but a map dealing with genocide should not.

hammer and sickle and red star are banned in Hungary

Only when used as a political symbol. There are many references of its use in life here.

No matter what symbol maps use, you can always find one person who will find it offencive but we cannot ban them all. As I said, in the right context, nothing should be banned.