What is your opinion on the foundy?

[jpcloet]

I'd start by eliminating the "serious forum support". It is quite clear that (especially in the draft room) that not very many people visit the foundry. I'd be more lenient and allow maps to make it to production and allow them to stand on their own merit. Eg. Japan was a great map and I looked forward to playing it. Now it's gone....

I'd focus more on game play. Clearly a number of people can graphically make a map in a week or so, but the game play is not being considered enough at the earliest stages.

[grifftron]

Hey all,

I had a few map ideas in the past, but besides that I might look at the foundry once in a while but I don't enjoy going to the foundry because of the people always at each others throats all the time (example, the people fighting in this forum which is labeled "What is your opinion on the foundry?) I think there are a lot of awesome maps that will hopefully be out on BETA soon so we can play them, but i feel like a lot of the forums in the Map Foundry get way off topic and usually end up in the rivalry of some of the map makers here on CC. Just what i have observed...

[jefjef]

With all that said <cough> I'd love to see more polls related to the map creation process.

Overall I myself enjoy visiting the foundry. It's about the only sane place (for the most part) in these forums.

THANK YOU MAP TEAM!

They have tried to bring in a wider audience to critique maps. The problem is they already have those few that view the forums that are interested. The large majority of CC members do not even know what a forum is, so how can you get the true populas view of CC gamers ?

I have suggested this before, but it went nowhere. I will suggest it once more.

CC should send out via pm to all CC members, a monthly newsletter. How do they expect people to sign up for a newsletter when they do not ever visit the forum. This would be great for CC and its members alike. CC could garner much more feedback on things like maps and such, and members could be more informed about CC. This will lead to a whole new group of CC posters that would be a step outside of the box. Polls would garner the numbers into the thousands instead of the 20 or so at the most that participate today.

On top of this CC would have an influx of non paid volunteers that could help to fill the big gap that exists.

I suggested something like this and it went completely unnoticed in the suggestion forum. Though I said that something like a front page e-zine would be a better idea. It would include a basic intro to the site for those new, the login and the e-zine with general info about what's going on, new maps, ect., tournaments, info on members... ect.

it would be just basic headlines that one could click and follow or whatever. Especially for maps, this would be great, things like "Do you want another rail map?" "Should Germany be revamped?" "American Colonies map in the works" Ect. could go on and on. They could host polls as well: Should Africa be revamped? ad we'd have the go ahead for it or not. I think it really would have a unifying effect on the forums and the site. But alas, no one else does.

Well brother there are 2 of us so far. I am sure that we will from a few others on this suggestion. I really can NOT see any reasonable argument against it.

Got this pointed in a constructive direction and guess what. More finger pointing wanting to fight posts follow it.

Lets look at THIS idea. I like it. It would bring more attention to the foundry and bring US maps for our enjoyment. Some new talent could also surface from the ranks and It would also benefit the business called CC.

[captainwalrus]

Yes, back to the original topic. I think the system is fine, and as red gets used to being blue there will be less maps which deserve to go on but don't and the speed will pick up.
The people are fine, I like them, they are on the whole smart people, and I like anyone who is not really really dumb, so it works for me.

[WidowMakers]

WM,

I think a slight dose of humility would serve us all well. No one is as good as they think. Pork certainly has a lot to learn about mapmaking, but so do we all in some area or another. if we could just leave the personal out of it and try to focus on the work, in a polite and constructive way, like you have done in such detail with 150 after Hijrah, I think we would go a long way towards meeting grifton's reservations re: getting sucked into the Foundry infighting.

I agree 100%. We ALL need to leave the personal attacks and personal comments out of any discussion based on CC maps. We are not here to critique and judge each other as people, we are here to work, judge and critique computer generated drawings that we make. BIG DIFFERENCE.

But I have seen very few posts where a personal attack has been made because of a map idea.
Personal Attacks

This map sucks because you are stupid
This map is a bad idea because you live in…[fill in country]
This is a bad idea because your avatar is a …
Your color choice is all wrong because you argue too much.

99% of all the comments I have seen, have been based on the overall look and workings of a map. If a person sees an issue, they comment on the map, NOT the person. Even if a person responds in a way that you or I may not (i.e. this map is really bad and should be destroyed because it is so vile and disgusting), they are not attacking the creator.

People need to learn that just because people say a map is bad, THEY ARE NOT ATTACKING THE PERSON WHO MADE IT.
Map complaints

Your colors are bad
You font is poor choice
Your borders are unclear
I can’t read the legend
The theme is wrong and does not fit the look
Please make the legend bigger
I hate the borders
I like the style but the text is hard to read.
Why are there 5 bonus regions, that seem wrong?
I can’t see the different bonus regions due to color issues

Do you see the difference between my two sets of comments?

So to repeat again:

1) Not all comments are personal attacks
2) If you make a comment, don’t make it a personal attack. Make sure you focus on the actual map project.
3) Please read the context of each comment
4) Listen to the comments. If the majority are suggesting things that you disagree with, you either need to do a much harder sell or maybe they majority has a good suggestion and you should listen
5) Just because you have an idea, does not make it a good idea (see the show American Inventor)
6) If people say your idea is bad. Rethink it and try again or start a new project.
7) People are not out to get new cartos. What is there to gain by stopping a person, we don’t know, from making a map?

WM

[RedBaron0]

{sigh} My opinion of the Foundry is that maps are made here, lately there has been a war going on. A war of words between 2 camps. It doesn't matter who is on which side, everyone is losing.

The Foundry has an image problem. The community here clashes with itself, keeping the community at large away. Everyone is mature enough to know what they are typing. You can privately discuss things how ever you choose. There are guideline for this site, and further guidelines that govern the Foundry. MrBenn has already posted about consequences so I won't repeat them, but know I can and will do the same should the situation arise. This is supposed to be a fun place of creation... There are winds of change afoot, and I'll be damned if those changes are marred by continued bitterness and petty squabbles. I'm not trying to stifle anyone's creativity or censor anyone's ability too say a map looks good or bad. I feel that the Foundry IS very insular, a world unto itself. More people from the community would visit the Foundry if the Foundry wasn't so combative. Not elitist.

[gimil]

I have already told you what I think the main problem is.

I think what gimil is trying to ask for is solutions...

Possible solutions and/or more information to assist in creating a good solution. The more pieces of the puzzle we have, the better we can solve the jigsaw.

[porkenbeans]

I have already told you what I think the main problem is.

I think what gimil is trying to ask for is solutions...

I am glad to hear that, because I really don't want to fight today.

Ok, here we go.

The very first thing that must be done is, decide on just what the function of the Foundry is to be. Is it...

a.) to lend a helping hand to members that are interested in making maps

or,
b.) to instead of just lending a helping hand, it takes your project over, and through polls tells you what you are to do, and how you are to do everything, from theme to style to every aspect of the creative process.

After you have chosen exactly what the function is to be, be it one of these examples or something totally different, It MUST be spelled out very clearly up front, in an unambiguous manner, so that people know exactly what they are getting into. None of this BS about the unwritten rules, or the program, or whatever the latest code words are these days, that snobs are using. If things are to be a certain way then come out and say so right up front.

I would hope that the Foundry would chose to adopt the first example that I mentioned. it is a good way to go. I thought that WAS it"s function, when I read all of the user info about it at the start of my experience here.

If they were to want to retain the helping hand approach, I have many good ideas about how that can be done successfully. And ways to structure it, so that the problems that are prevalent today can be avoided. And would be more than happy to elaborate if they were interested.

[captainwalrus]

It is a bit in between. The main goal is to make good maps for people to play and enjoy. THat is accomplished by doing a bit of a and a bit of b.

[Incandenza]

The sad truth is that not every map developed in the foundry deserves to be quenched. This is where experienced foundrarians really help the process, by trying to help new mapmakers refine and enhance their efforts. Sometime the original idea simply isn't good enough, sometimes the gameplay needs to be revised and streamlined. We're lucky that many veteran mapmakers continue to participate in the foundry and comment on other people's maps.

Newcomers to the foundry are welcomed with open arms. Wids, cairns, mibi, DiM, qwert, yeti, gimil, all were foundry noobs at one point or another. And as was pointed out before, many of the maps in the main foundry and final forge come courtesy of first-time mapmakers: Scott, Isaiah, Helix, Sully, dolemite, DubWarrior, lgoasklucyl, eipi, the list goes on and on.

The foundry is a collaborative process. The best and most prolific mapmakers understand this and thrive in a collaborative environment, with the full knowledge that an idea is just that. Ideas often don't survive the process in their original forms, but if you look at any first draft of any quenched map, and then look at the final product, and chart the suggestions, disputes, full-blown disagreements, syntheses, compromises, and do-overs along the way that helped create that final product, and the new mapmaker will understand that no map is an island, that he must be able to roll with the punches, that veteran mapmakers are in fact his best resource. Successful first-time mapmakers learn this. The unsuccessful ones, as a rule, don't.

[porkenbeans]

The sad truth is that not every map developed in the foundry deserves to be quenched. This is where experienced foundrarians really help the process, by trying to help new mapmakers refine and enhance their efforts. Sometime the original idea simply isn't good enough, sometimes the gameplay needs to be revised and streamlined. We're lucky that many veteran mapmakers continue to participate in the foundry and comment on other people's maps.

Newcomers to the foundry are welcomed with open arms. Wids, cairns, mibi, DiM, qwert, yeti, gimil, all were foundry noobs at one point or another. And as was pointed out before, many of the maps in the main foundry and final forge come courtesy of first-time mapmakers: Scott, Isaiah, Helix, Sully, dolemite, DubWarrior, lgoasklucyl, eipi, the list goes on and on.

The foundry is a collaborative process. The best and most prolific mapmakers understand this and thrive in a collaborative environment, with the full knowledge that an idea is just that. Ideas often don't survive the process in their original forms, but if you look at any first draft of any quenched map, and then look at the final product, and chart the suggestions, disputes, full-blown disagreements, syntheses, compromises, and do-overs along the way that helped create that final product, and the new mapmaker will understand that no map is an island, that he must be able to roll with the punches, that veteran mapmakers are in fact his best resource. Successful first-time mapmakers learn this. The unsuccessful ones, as a rule, don't.

Then why is this fact disguised with words in the guidelines such as 'suggestions". Why not just come right out and say, that if you do not do what you are told by the A team, your project will not be allowed to go forward ? Why not just come out and say that, this is a collaborative effort, and all decisions regarding every aspect of your map, will be made by the foundry and its elite ? If you ask me it is wrong to give this power to the ones giving the helping hand. The power of approving maps for live play should be in the hands of the community. Not this small group of Foundry members that face it, are blind with power, and just can not wait to haze the next noob that dares to step foot in their Foundry.

If they truly just want to help others, then let them do so. but please have the wisdom to see that they should NOT be given the power to pick and chose which projects are worthy enough to become CC maps.

This task should be given to a large group of testers. This group of testers can be recruited from high ranking players only. As a matter of fact it can be a perk for reaching the rank of Capt. or something. Whenever a map has met certain requirements it should then go to the test group. This group should be very large, and NOT consist of map makers. They can render their experienced opinions on the proposed maps that come down the pike.

Only then will the Foundry become what it claims to be. A place where aspiring map makers can go to get help and guidance at map making. Which brings to mind another idea. Maps need not be produced in the Foundry. If they meet the requirements, they should be allowed to go to the testers.

All of this would be better for CC because the Foundry will revert back to the helping hand that it was first envisioned to be. and it will produce a much wider variety of maps in style, theme, and art. I also think that it will produce higher quality maps than we have being quenched today.

If the Foundry likes polls so much, Why don't we just have a poll on this idea ? Oh, while I would surely want the Foundry members to be able to vote, I would open up the polling booths to all CC members with the rank of sarg. or better. That means that the poll should be sent out via pm to all those that qualify to vote. It would surprise some of you to know that the large majority of members have never even been to the forums, and I will tell you right now, that they are not at all interested in the political forum bullshit. They are purely here for the love of, the game of risk.

[RedBaron0]

In the Foundry some projects have been tried several times to no avail. Should some of these places be maps in CC, yes, will they be? Only when the right person comes along and makes it. We are at a point where we can be selective. If some of the oldest maps were to come through the Foundry now, with no other version of that map available they wouldn't make it. Why don't we do revamps you say? If you've seen anything coming from the Germany revamp you know why... they generally aren't well received when they go out into the community at large... (there are more issues with Germany besides the point, but that's a different topic) people get used to the way maps look, and when things change, the sky is falling.

It would be really nice to have a group dedicated to map testing, I've suggested it a couple of time myself in the past. It's not something that is feasible at this point. We do have a system that allows for it though, the Beta map system. Everyone who doesn't know, just because a map is a BETA doesn't mean it WILL be quenched. The entire community are the testers.

The system isn't perfect, even when the winds of change come it won't be perfect either. The Foundry will not make every map, there is a bin fill of many, many attempts at a great many topics. I myself am lucky to only have 1 heaped up wad in there. Slowly with some luck I hope to fill in a sorely empty niche with my current project. I'm lucky to have had many wonderful posters give me advice, many are in this very thread. Is everyone here on the "A" team, no. Who is the "A" Team? It doesn't matter, as a map maker I will take anyones advice, period. That map has changed so much since the beginning, and mostly because of suggestion by the posters, the work is mine though. Just because someone else suggests what to put into your image doesn't make it any less YOURS. I think one thing is lost on some map makers: The map image is yours, but it is to be played on by the PLAYERS, the community. To say they shouldn't have any say in the creation of said images is ludicrous.

This game is just similar to a popular world domination game... unique because of it's players, styles, format, and it's MAPS. I can only think of 4 different maps made specifically by Hasbro.... which makes CC better IMHO. I love Risk, I love dice in my hand, I seldom get to play. (I did win 70 dollars last year at the RTOC in Allentown ) That's not true here, here I can play as little or as much as I want, and with far more input that I'd ever have with Hasbro since they'll never produce an Asia map, or a World 2.1, or an Age of Realms, or a Japan! It's not cost effective...

Let the Foundry change, and lets put this petty bickering aside and get as many people involved with the process as possible. Let people feel welcome to visit the Foundry at their desire. Again don't think I'm singling out one party or side, there is more of a need now to come together and get this moving in the right direction.

[oaktown]

What's my opinion of the Foundry? Well, it looks to me like just about any other forum at this site. It's easy to use and fairly well organized. The colors do not hurt my eyes. The current stamping system makes sense given the stated goals of the map-making process, and the quality of the product that the Foundry turns out is fairly solid. High marks for both form and function.

What the rest of you are expressing, so far as I can tell, are your opinions of your experience within the Foundry, and that's a very different story. I say this because your experience in the Foundry is shaped by the individuals who frequent this forum, not so much by the policies and format of the forum itself.

I would go so far as to suggest that all of the problems that the Foundry faces/has ever faced are the result of whims, desires, and over-inflated egos of individuals. And its not just that there are a few bad apples; everyone who stumbles in brings their own opinions and personality, and whether those opinions and personalities are pleasant or distasteful they shape the experience of every other CC member who reads Foundry posts. Even the most pleasant and hard-working Foundry regular (Coleman?) has probably written something that has bruised the ego of another, or caused somebody to think that the Foundry is a steaming pile of elitist ass holes.

Let's throw that word ego back into the mix, because I truly believe that big egos are what most contributes to individuals having bad Foundry experiences. And when I say that, I mean both the ego of the individual having a bad experience, and the egos of those who are influencing that experience. Whether you are creating a map that gets ripped a new one, or just making a comment that goes overlooked or ignored, you are experiencing a clash of egos.

We all bring our own baggage into this place, and so we are all a part of the problem. The question is whether or not you're able to step back, look at your place in the Foundry, and try to help this forum function. So it pains me whenever I read a statement like this...

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Truer words were never spoken.
If the Foundry truly wants to improve itself, They need only, go back to those goals that it was first built on. Find ways to realize those goals, and start by cutting out the cancerous growth that is the lust for power.

I take many exceptions to this statement. First, power does not always corrupt. Gandhi was the spiritual and political leader of 300 million people, but stayed pretty true to his message. And I still see Jimmy Carter building houses for everyday people. I do not accept this as a truism.

Second, who is this "they?" The writer of this statement is more active in the Foundry right now than I am, yet I suspect he would count me among this mysterious "them" who run the Foundry. Whether or not you hold a title or have even made a map, by virtue of posting here you are a part of the Foundry.

Third, the Foundry is very much meeting the original goals of this forum. Maps are being made, and at a far greater rate and level of quality than they were when I made my first map. If you don't believe me, go back and look at my first map.

Finally, those who oversee the Foundry have long been aware that there are indeed some who lust for power around here, and those individuals are not promoted to become Foundry moderators. Those who do become Foundry moderators tend to burn out and leave after a few months or a year, because the perceived "power" of being a Foundry mod isn't worth the headaches and loss of sleep that accompany the position. If Keyogi, Coleman, Cairnswk, Gimil, or I were power-hungry mad-men intent on taking over Conquer Club we would never have quit.

[AndyDufresne]

A wise hippo, a wise hippo indeed.


--Andy

[porkenbeans]

What's my opinion of the Foundry? Well, it looks to me like just about any other forum at this site. It's easy to use and fairly well organized. The colors do not hurt my eyes. The current stamping system makes sense given the stated goals of the map-making process, and the quality of the product that the Foundry turns out is fairly solid. High marks for both form and function.

What the rest of you are expressing, so far as I can tell, are your opinions of your experience within the Foundry, and that's a very different story. I say this because your experience in the Foundry is shaped by the individuals who frequent this forum, not so much by the policies and format of the forum itself.

I would go so far as to suggest that all of the problems that the Foundry faces/has ever faced are the result of whims, desires, and over-inflated egos of individuals. And its not just that there are a few bad apples; everyone who stumbles in brings their own opinions and personality, and whether those opinions and personalities are pleasant or distasteful they shape the experience of every other CC member who reads Foundry posts. Even the most pleasant and hard-working Foundry regular (Coleman?) has probably written something that has bruised the ego of another, or caused somebody to think that the Foundry is a steaming pile of elitist ass holes.

Let's throw that word ego back into the mix, because I truly believe that big egos are what most contributes to individuals having bad Foundry experiences. And when I say that, I mean both the ego of the individual having a bad experience, and the egos of those who are influencing that experience. Whether you are creating a map that gets ripped a new one, or just making a comment that goes overlooked or ignored, you are experiencing a clash of egos.

We all bring our own baggage into this place, and so we are all a part of the problem. The question is whether or not you're able to step back, look at your place in the Foundry, and try to help this forum function. So it pains me whenever I read a statement like this...

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Truer words were never spoken.
If the Foundry truly wants to improve itself, They need only, go back to those goals that it was first built on. Find ways to realize those goals, and start by cutting out the cancerous growth that is the lust for power.

I take many exceptions to this statement. First, power does not always corrupt. Gandhi was the spiritual and political leader of 300 million people, but stayed pretty true to his message. And I still see Jimmy Carter building houses for everyday people. I do not accept this as a truism.

Second, who is this "they?" The writer of this statement is more active in the Foundry right now than I am, yet I suspect he would count me among this mysterious "them" who run the Foundry. Whether or not you hold a title or have even made a map, by virtue of posting here you are a part of the Foundry.

Third, the Foundry is very much meeting the original goals of this forum. Maps are being made, and at a far greater rate and level of quality than they were when I made my first map. If you don't believe me, go back and look at my first map.

Finally, those who oversee the Foundry have long been aware that there are indeed some who lust for power around here, and those individuals are not promoted to become Foundry moderators. Those who do become Foundry moderators tend to burn out and leave after a few months or a year, because the perceived "power" of being a Foundry mod isn't worth the headaches and loss of sleep that accompany the position. If Keyogi, Coleman, Cairnswk, Gimil, or I were power-hungry mad-men intent on taking over Conquer Club we would never have quit.

Oak,
You usually carry a level head. But I think that you are missing the meaning of the quote about power. It only means that power is a dangerous thing, if it is absolute.
So, it is wise to always limit it where you can. power has a propensity to corrupt. But if you give someone all the power with no oversight, not only is there the propensity there to be corrupted, it is a given.
The quote is just a warning to those that give or receive power over others. It is not a very good idea to grant anyone absolute power, because even if they are a good and kind person, the power itself will change them, and they will be corrupted. Even a good hearted person like Gandhi would be corrupted if he was given absolute power over others.
Each person that comes to the Foundry, brings with them their own baggage. Yes I agree with you. And egos do tend, to sometimes clash. But sometimes it is not just a simple case of clashing egos.

There is at this time a "Lord of the Flies" like situation going on in the Foundry that you may not be aware of. people are secretly getting blacklisted by a very small group of power mad children. Once a person for one reason or another gets on their bad side they are dogged every where they go and harassed. The others in the Foundry for some reason do not speak up against these spoiled little brats. I do not know why, maybe out of fear or apathy, or adoration. Most of them otherwise seem to be friendly and helpful people, but if they only knew what it is like to be on the receiving end of this sick, belligerent and childish game, they would have some empathy I'm sure.

To tell you the truth, I am this close to just giving up. I have come to the conclusion that maybe all of this is simply a result of a purely volunteer staff. It is a noble pursuit perhaps. And an idea that sounds good on its face, (not to mention, inexpensive). But I guess that in the end, ...you get what you pay for.

[RjBeals]

A wise hippo, a wise hippo indeed.


--Andy

And how. Oak must be a really really good teacher in real life.

(edit). I almost feel like making a map now.

[captainwalrus]

(edit). I almost feel like making a map now.

Please! Please!

And at PB's concerns in general, I don't think many other people have had the same bad experience in the foundry that you have had. I don't think it is a major problem.

[AndyDufresne]

There is at this time a "Lord of the Flies" like situation going on in the Foundry that you may not be aware of. people are secretly getting blacklisted by a very small group of power mad children. Once a person for one reason or another gets on their bad side they are dogged every where they go and harassed. The others in the Foundry for some reason do not speak up against these spoiled little brats. I do not know why, maybe out of fear or apathy, or adoration. Most of them otherwise seem to be friendly and helpful people, but if they only knew what it is like to be on the receiving end of this sick, belligerent and childish game, they would have some empathy I'm sure.

I think any characterization of any sort of secret blacklist is exaggeratory and inflammatory---at best. Conquer Club, let alone the Foundry, isn't run by any secret society or conspiracy bunkers.

To tell you the truth, I am this close to just giving up. I have come to the conclusion that maybe all of this is simply a result of a purely volunteer staff. It is a noble pursuit perhaps. And an idea that sounds good on its face, (not to mention, inexpensive). But I guess that in the end, ...you get what you pay for.

And this last line is pretty disheartening. Taking a stab at volunteers? How many times have you thanked any of the volunteers on Conquer Club? Not very often, I assume. Most people don't---it's just not in their day to do so. All Volunteers on Conquer Club deserve respect.


--Andy

[WidowMakers]

There is at this time a "Lord of the Flies" like situation going on in the Foundry that you may not be aware of. people are secretly getting blacklisted by a very small group of power mad children. Once a person for one reason or another gets on their bad side they are dogged every where they go and harassed. The others in the Foundry for some reason do not speak up against these spoiled little brats. I do not know why, maybe out of fear or apathy, or adoration. Most of them otherwise seem to be friendly and helpful people, but if they only knew what it is like to be on the receiving end of this sick, belligerent and childish game, they would have some empathy I'm sure.

Could you please provide an example list of people who:

1) Secretly get "blacklisted"
2) Why you think those people were "blacklisted"
3) Who are the "power mad children'
4) Who are the others in the foundry

I am still very confused as to where anyone has talked about anything else BUT MAPS and all the name calling.
I have seen many bad looking maps. I don't know who the person is at first but eventually, if they keep going, I can get to know each them (in the internet sense of "know").
If I see a bad map i will post my opinion and move on. Hopefully the person is understanding enough to realize it is directed towards the art and not the person.
That is how I got to know many of the people here.

I have never had any predetermined idea about anyone. I started to make opinions about them based on the words, ideas and images they posted.
I will say that again differently.
I have never made any judgment about anyone until i have read or looked over their posts. Basically because that is impossible to do since a persons posts and images are all we see of them and their online persona.

Please try to understand.

-People are not out to get a person for posting a map (good or bad).
-People are not out to poke fun at individuals.
-In the foundry people are here to make good maps.
-People are here to provide their opinions and suggestion to the MAPS.
-People need to understand how to differentiate criticism of a map and criticism of an individual.

Just because people don't like your map, doe snot mean they don't like you.
Don't try to make more out of something that was not originally there.

BUT.....
Once all the name calling and childish behavior and rude posts and accusations of whatever else, people start to see a better picture of the attitude behind the avatar.
It takes a long time to gain respect and trust between two people. It only takes 1 post to lose it all.

WM

WM

[oaktown]

Could you please provide an example list of people who:

1) Secretly get "blacklisted"
2) Why you think those people were "blacklisted"
3) Who are the "power mad children'
4) Who are the others in the foundry

Here WM, I can do this...

1) Those "blacklisted" are individual who have turned out consistently crappy products, been rebuked by the Foundry, and have been unable to complete a map.
2) The "blacklist" is a product of their own imaginations; they believe they have been blacklisted because seasoned mapmakers like to keep their club intimate... because CC mapmakers have all the hottest women and best drugs and they aren't sharing!
3) Anybody who either A) has quenched a map or B) has a Foundry title, and is critical of the work of somebody described in #1.
4) Anybody not already described in #3 or #1.



But seriously, the Foundry stopped being fun for me about a year ago, so I backed away and found other things to do with my time. At first I was indignant - I wasn't going to let a few pricks ruin this experience for me, and I certainly wasn't going to let them have the pleasure of driving me out, so I stuck around and put up some fights. But you know what? It wasn't worth it, because at the end of the day the only thing that matters to me is my own peace of mind.

I suggest to all of you that if the Foundry isn't a source of FUN, leave. If you find this forum frustrating, leave. If you think the people suck, leave. If you are angry, leave. Because when you come in here with your anger and frustration, it ruins the experience for everybody else.

And to those of you who are sick to death of the insane rantings of a few unhappy souls but who want to stick around, I suggest you start making use of the Foe option. There are many posts in this thread that I can't see because I foed people months ago. Porkenbeans

That's all for me. See you all in a few months when I get curious again.

[yeti_c]

I find it amusing that the foundry is labelled as elitist - when we have a usergroup that has one of the easiest entry policies on the site...

If you have a quenched map you are allowed in - No Ifs - No buts...

To those that have written massive wall of text like posts... why didn't you put that effort into analysing other peoples maps? Or improving your own?

Why did I just waste a lot of time reading this thread? Probably cos it was just here... If I didn't waste my time reading this - I might have commented on 3 or 4 maps... shame.

C.

[porkenbeans]

I find it amusing that the foundry is labelled as elitist - when we have a usergroup that has one of the easiest entry policies on the site...

If you have a quenched map you are allowed in - No Ifs - No buts...

To those that have written massive wall of text like posts... why didn't you put that effort into analysing other peoples maps? Or improving your own?

Why did I just waste a lot of time reading this thread? Probably cos it was just here... If I didn't waste my time reading this - I might have commented on 3 or 4 maps... shame.

C.

I find it interesting that there is a usergroup that only allows map quenchers in.
Why is it that they would find it necessary to set themselves apart from other aspiring map makers in the foundry ? Seems an awfully elitist thing to do.

AAAAAAA-chooo.

[natty dread]

I've been trying to stay away from this argument, for various reasons. I don't want to take sides in this stupid fight, hell, I don't even want to participate in the fight. However I think it would be appropriate that I, as a new mapmaker, would state my view.

From what I can tell, I have been welcomed fairly well in the foundry. I have started two serious projects which are both at the drafting room. One of them has been in production for a month, and is coming along quite nicely, despite some concerns for lack of support (which admittedly may still bring the map down). But this thread isn't about me and my maps... My point was, that I never perceived that the a group in the foundry was intentionally trying to dictate my mapmaking, or trying to keep me from finishing my map.

What I have perceived is many interested and helpful persons giving advice and suggestions. And being a new mapmaker I have had no problem taking most of those suggestions and implementing them into my map. I haven't seen anyone trying to bully me into accepting a view other than my own for my map. Many have offered criticism, and some suggestions I have decided not to take, for various reasons, but most I have tried to implement.

When my first map started out, it was very different from what it is now. Then a crafty little monkey came along and hinted that my map might succeed better if I came up with a clear theme for my map. At first I was a bit against this, firstly because I had put in much work in my map and had became quite fond of the style I was developing at the time. Secondly, because I had a hard time thinking of a theme that would really fit my map.

But, when I finally found that theme, and implemented it, the result was that my map was a million times better than before, and I found that ultimately, I had been smart to take that advice. It didn't make my map any less mine, I didn't feel like anyone was dictating the style of my map, I was told to come up with a theme for my map, and I did, but I decided on the theme myself. Everyone also agreed that the new theme worked a lot better than the old one.

What I'm trying to say here is... Firstly, porkenbeans: I have high respect for you as a fellow mapmaker and a person. I think you are very talented with graphics, and you have many good ideas and you have a certain artistic eye, a certain something that even some veteran mapmakers lack more or less. But lately it seems to me, that you have taken your artistic freedom a bit too far.

Yes, some of the posts mibi and the.killing wrote to you were insulting and probably would have been best left unsaid or at the very least said in different words. For example, mibi's "Africa: On the flipside" sarcasm was a bit over the top.

But you yourself are also taking things a bit too far. Just because people don't agree with your artistic view on a certain map, you bring forth these conspiracy-theory-like comments about people trying to hinder your map's development and trying to dictate the style of your map. If you were doing a work of art, that had no other function than to be a work of art, then you would have all the artistic freedom in the world and no one could say anything about it. But this is mapmaking, where you have to take the community's views in consideration.

Let's all try to step back here and forget "who started it" or "who flamed first" and just try to focus on making great maps.

Sorry, I would say more but I have to run.

[porkenbeans]

@natty,
You are not in my shoes brother, so you do not realize what is truly going on. From your perspective everything's great. You would see things a lot differently if you had to read crap like this from a group that snickers as they all take their turns poking my with a stick. I just recieved this last little note in my box a couple of miniuts ago.

Regarding his post in the conan thread, most of us found it hilarious.
His sense of humor might be a bit twisted sometimes, but he's a good guy overall.

Did you get a chance to read mibi's post in my Conan thread before it was modedited ? It was utterly disgusting. He used words like diarrhea, and vomit, to describe my first rough draft for that project.

This is NOT some far-fetched conspiracy theory my friend. And I am not some nut job that sees ghosts. You best stay clear of saying anything that would get yourself on their bad side, lest you want to find out first hand what I have been going through. But from the looks of it you are saying the right things that should keep you safe. Although that comment about "the certain eye that even the veteran map makers lack" ...might not set so well.

[natty dread]

Hey, I say things like I see them. And I really am not taking any sides in this fight. I admit the post mibi wrote in your conan-thread was going a bit too far. I wouldn't like such posts posted on any of my map threads.

But why not try to build peace here, instead of searching for vengeance. Be the bigger man and extend an offering of peace. Someone has to make the initiative, and you have the chance to prove yourself the more mature one by trying to fix the situation instead of "fanning the flames".

Everybody would do well to see things in the other guy's perspective once in a while.

Mibi and co. would do well to see things in your perspective. Thinking about how it was when they first started mapmaking, and how they would have liked to be treated back then.

Just the same, you would do well to try to see things from their perspective. Think about it, if you had been contributing to the foundry or any other project like it for years, and earned the respect of most of your peers by your work. You might just as easily forget what it was like to be new and be a little harsh in your comments to new guys.

It doesn't mean either of you are bad persons.

We're all humans here. We make mistakes, nobody is perfect. But instead of concentrating on the past, who slighted who, who flamed who and such. Why not try to settle our differences, and work together. It would benefit us all.

Once again, I'm not taking any sides in this dispute. This whole thing has gotten way out of hand and I wish we could all just get over it, forgive and forget. This bickering benefits nobody, it hinders us when people spend their time fighting when they could be spending that time making maps. I'm not trying to justify anyone's actions here, many here have done and said things they probably regret by now. There must be a way this whole infected situation can be healed.

This is all I wish to comment on this subject. I hope all of the parties on this dispute can see reason and try to work out their differences. I have high regards for both mibi and porkenbeans, and I hate to see this flame-war distracting people from the thing that really matters: making great maps.