Conquer Club

Upkeep

Topics that are not maps. Discuss general map making concepts, techniques, contests, etc, here.

Moderator: Cartographers

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Upkeep

Postby OliverFA on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:35 pm

Hi all,

Hi had an iddea for an XML suggestion, but I think that this idea requires some discussion before being submitted, in order to build a clear and simple suggestion.

One thing that CC maps are lacking is the concept of Upkeep. We have the concept of Production/Reinfocements. Each turn, depending on the bonuses a player holds, a number of troops can be deployed. But those troops are maintained magically by themselves. They don't have any associated cost. This leads to some deadlock situations when players just reinforce, and reinforce, and reinforce. Until someone gets bored and attacks. It also fails to simulate the mechanics of war, in which generals have to care for maintaining their big armies.

What I am proposing is to give mapmakers the chance to enable upkeep for their map. With upkeep enabled, armies have to be paid for at the begining of turn.

To make things simple, upkeep would work in this way.
Code: Select all
Armies to deploy=MIN[Reinforcement bonuses,(Reinforcement bonuses-upkeep cost+upkeep bonuses)]

But never below 0.

Reinforcement bonuses:The "normal" reinforcement bonuses present in all maps, usuall formed by regions/3 plus continent bonuses (but not autodeploys).
Upkeep Cost: Number of troops in player's army * troop upkeep cost (this constant could be declared in the map).
Upkeep bonuses: In addition to giving reinforcement bonuses, regiones/continents would also give upkeep bonuses, that help to maintain the army of the region's owner.

As an example, an upkeep bonus could be a windmill. A reinforcement bonus could be an iron mine. A castle could provide a mixed bonus of reinforcement and upkeep.

As you can see, once your army is bigger than what you can maintain, the number or armies you can deploy each turn gets smaller and smaller, because production resources are used to maintain existing army rather than creating a new one. At some point the army is so big that all resources are directed exclusively to maintenance.

Now for the advantages of this idea:
- It adds a new layer of strategy. It's not only about creating a big army. Is also about maintaining it.
- It adds more depth to the game. Now there are two types of resources, which makes for more varied and fun maps.
- It is still simple. Instead of keeping track of upkeep in a separate place, that cost is incoporated in the reinforcement formula, and will reduce it's number when upkeep is big enough.
- It's optional. So the mapmaker can use it or just ignore it.
- It's fun! Having more strategic options is always fun.

Added: Upkeep bonus could also be negative, representing places that have a high cost for player's economy. Such as a swamp that is an unproductive land but is strategically interesting because it represents a bottleneck. Or a cannon, that allows the player to bombard many territories but has a negative upkeep bonus to compensate for it.
Last edited by OliverFA on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

My Maps:
Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

Best score: 2,346 - Best position: #618 - Best percentile: 4.87%
User avatar
Private OliverFA
 
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:30 am
Location: Somewhere in Spain

Re: Upkeep

Postby Riskismy on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:58 pm

I'm not good at math at all, so I can't help with that formula. I think it's a good concept though. I myself hate those situations of everyone reinforcing every turn until someone gets bored (especially since it's usually me!).

It's a big change though, real big, but the added variety might warrant the effort.
Image
Lieutenant Riskismy
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Copenhagen

Re: Upkeep

Postby OliverFA on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Riskismy wrote:I'm not good at math at all, so I can't help with that formula. I think it's a good concept though. I myself hate those situations of everyone reinforcing every turn until someone gets bored (especially since it's usually me!).


I'll try to explain with words and one example:

Let's imagine that one "reinforcement unit" allows you to place 1 army in the map OR to pay the upkeep for 10 armies. Using the Classic map, owning Africa allows you to pay for the upkeep of 30 armies. Europe gives upkeep for 50 armies and so on. Also, each 3 territories gives you reinforcement for 10 armies.

Now with some particular examples. If you own Africa, this normally gives you 6 reinfocements (3 minimum + 3 from Africa). If you have 10 troops, the upkeep of those 10 troops reduce the reinforcement to only 5 troops. If you have 50 troops you only reinforce 1 troop. Having 60 or more troops would leave you without reinforcement.

So, the upkeep cost is substracted from your reinforcements.

Having upkeep resources would not give you extra reinforcements, but would allow you to have bigger armies before having your reinforcement reduced.

For this example I have taken the upkeep cost as 0.1 but this is something that could be defined in each map.

Riskismy wrote:It's a big change though, real big, but the added variety might warrant the effort.

If the upkeep cost is small, the gameplay is almost the same. Just prevents having really big armies. If the upkeep cost is medium/big then the gameplay changes a lot and the map will need to have upkeep resources.
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

My Maps:
Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

Best score: 2,346 - Best position: #618 - Best percentile: 4.87%
User avatar
Private OliverFA
 
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:30 am
Location: Somewhere in Spain

Re: Upkeep

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:22 pm

Your XML expertise never ceases to amaze me, Oliver. This is XML platinum, if you ask me. I love it! Also there could be places that require a higher upkeep, as well, maybe? (Like swamps as opposed to plains, etc.?)
User avatar
Corporal Victor Sullivan
 
Posts: 6010
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:17 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Upkeep

Postby OliverFA on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:00 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:Your XML expertise never ceases to amaze me, Oliver. This is XML platinum, if you ask me. I love it! Also there could be places that require a higher upkeep, as well, maybe? (Like swamps as opposed to plains, etc.?)


Thanks! ;) Please, if you see any way to improve it or any issue, don't hesitate to ask. I know that this will only have a chance of getting implemented if it is kept simple. That's why I choose to incorporate the upkeep cost inside the reinforcemente calculation.

I think that places that requiere a higher upkeep could be implemented as a negative bonus (will add this to the original post). They would be places that had a significant cost for your economy, forcing you to commit part of your resources just to maintaining them. But of course they would have an strategic interest and that's the reason why players would be willing to pay the extra upkeep.
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

My Maps:
Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

Best score: 2,346 - Best position: #618 - Best percentile: 4.87%
User avatar
Private OliverFA
 
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:30 am
Location: Somewhere in Spain

Re: Upkeep

Postby Valykrie on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:08 am

Not sure if that should be associated with the map as the only option for that map. I think it should be something mapmakers can throw in as an option, but also have non-upkeep options. Good idea overall.
User avatar
New Recruit Valykrie
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:25 pm

Re: Upkeep

Postby ender516 on Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:37 am

This is a fine idea. This sort of thing has been approximated by decay on maps like Dust Bowl and Antarctica (and Oasis? I've never played it) but that is a fixed amount regardless of the armies involved. Your proportional idea adds another degree of realism to the gameplay.

It might be interesting to include this feature as an option selected at game creation time, especially for upgraded versions of existing maps, but that opens a whole new can of worms, and might just make the process of getting a balanced map through the Foundry even more onerous than it is now.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ender516
 
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario

Re: Upkeep

Postby OliverFA on Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:09 am

ender516 wrote:This is a fine idea. This sort of thing has been approximated by decay on maps like Dust Bowl and Antarctica (and Oasis? I've never played it) but that is a fixed amount regardless of the armies involved. Your proportional idea adds another degree of realism to the gameplay.

Thanks! :)

ender516 wrote:It might be interesting to include this feature as an option selected at game creation time, especially for upgraded versions of existing maps,

I also think that. In fact, I think that the setting part and the XML complement eachother very well. The XML tags would give the mapmaker higher degree of control over this feature to make the map more interesting.

ender516 wrote:but that opens a whole new can of worms, and might just make the process of getting a balanced map through the Foundry even more onerous than it is now.

I think that the feature balances itself pretty well, except if the mapmaker makes a extensive use of the upkeep bonus territories. But if the mapmaker does it, it is because he has an idea and probably knows how to balance it.
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

My Maps:
Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

Best score: 2,346 - Best position: #618 - Best percentile: 4.87%
User avatar
Private OliverFA
 
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:30 am
Location: Somewhere in Spain


Return to Foundry Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users