Medal Awards for Map Makers?

[natty dread]

Well, with only two people awarded the medal, the mapmaker is forced to make a decision between the XML person and the person that he feels contributed the most to the development of the map.

Nah, most people are not in this for the medals. Actually I think Blitzaholic is the only one... (j/k if you're reading this blitz )

With the XML being such a fast and easy thing to do, it seems a bit unfair that he should be awarded the medal over someone that put a lot more time and effort in. The boys in blue should, IMHO, be responsible for the XML.

Don't you think they have enough on thir plate as is?

If that small amount of work is too much, then I believe that there are others that would gladly do it

There are: the people that are doing it currently...

to get a blue name.

...And they do it even without a blue name. Team CC membership is in no way relevant to XML making, and CC reserves coloured names for Team CC members. So this would limit XML making for those who are willing and able to join Team CC.

Honestly porkenbeans, your idea is not a really good one. Currently, making XML gives people who don't know graphics or gameplay desing a chance to participate in mapmaking and earn medals. Or mapmakers can do it themselves, however they feel like. It's a good system and I don't see much reason to changing it. Sometimes we get situations where there's 3 people working on a map and one is left without a medal. But these instances are in the minority. Besides everyone of them can get their name in the map, and in the map information portal can store up to 4 mapmakers (idea, gameplay, graphics, XML) so these guys are not left without recognition.

[porkenbeans]

...And they do it even without a blue name. Team CC membership is in no way relevant to XML making, and CC reserves coloured names for Team CC members. So this would limit XML making for those who are willing and able to join Team CC.You really have not read my comments very carefully nat. I did NOT say that all team CC members must be XML writers.

I simply noted that the consensus seems to say, that XML is a minor thing, when you put it up against the more important, and time-consuming contributions, that go into the making of a map. More time and effort, is spent by the fans that follow the map through the Foundry process, than the XML person spends. So to give the XML person a Map medal over those individuals, is not really fair IMHO.

That is NOT to say that, that small contribution, is not worthy of recognition. It would however, become "more" worthy if there was just one or two people, that were responsible for all of the XML on all maps. Weather you give them a special XML medal, or a blue name, can be debated.

[natty dread]

It would however, become "more" worthy if there was just one or two people, that were responsible for all of the XML on all maps.

So let me get this straight. You want to limit the amount of XML-makers to one or two, so there would be less XML makers, so that those XML makers would get more props? Because if you're not saying that, then the thing you are saying sounds awfully lot like that.

Porkenbeans, let me put this in very clear terms lest you again accuse me of "not reading" or "misunderstanding" your post:

I did read your post, and I did not misunderstand it. I simply feel that your idea makes Absolutely No Sense Whatsoever.

The current system is good. The mapmakers can do their XML by theirselves if they want, or if they don't want to do it they can get someone else to do it. Whoever likes a map can do XML for that map if the mapmaker needs it done. And sometimes the XML maker gets a medal out of his troubles if there happens to be a spare medal to be given, and sometimes he just gets credits on the map. Mapmakers are happy, XML makers are happy, everyone is happy.

But you want to change it so that there would only be one or two people doing ALL the XML on ALL the maps, because this way those one or two people would get more respect for their work. And mapmakers would have to line up to them to get an XML for their map. The foundry would clog up, mapmakers would be unhappy, XML makers would be unhappy - both those who could no longer do XML and thus would be prevented to contribute to the foundry and those who would drown into XML making jobs - and foundry mods would be unhappy because I would bug them endlessly to change it back how it was.

Seriously, seems an awful lot of fuss and headache and unhappiness just to fix something that is not broken.

[porkenbeans]

How on earth would it "clog" up anything ?
It has been stated that it only takes an hour or so to do the XML.
Are there hundreds of maps per month needing this, or just 2 or 3 ?

If you feel that it is cool to give someone a medal for spending an hour doing XML, while others that have put in much more time in the development of a map, go unrewarded. Then that is your view. It is NOT mine.

BTW, you did misunderstand my post. And I only tried to clarify it for you.

[natty dread]

You're grasping at straws man. You're still missing the main point, that the current system works just fine, and there's no reason to change it. If some thing is easy to do, then why exactly do we need a specially dedicated team to do it?

The very idea of reducing the amount of XML writers so that XML writers would get more recognition is just a really ass-backwards way to go about it.

[natty dread]

It also fights against the very idea of the Foundry.

The idea of the Foundry is that anyone can make maps. We don't have specially designated "mapmakers" that are the only ones allowed to make maps on the site. Anyone can do it as long as he follows the foundry protocol and rules, and continues to work on his project until it is deemed by his peers to be up to standards.

There is no reason why the same should not apply to all aspects of mapmaking: graphics, gameplay and XML. We do not hire specialized teams to do the graphics or the gameplay, so why should we have one for the easiest part of it, the XML?

There, I can't put it in any simpler terms.

[porkenbeans]

If some thing is easy to do, then why exactly do we need a specially dedicated team to do it?
I have told you why. You for some reason refuse to respond to what I said.

[porkenbeans]

It also fights against the very idea of the Foundry.

The idea of the Foundry is that anyone can make maps. We don't have specially designated "mapmakers" that are the only ones allowed to make maps on the site. Anyone can do it as long as he follows the foundry protocol and rules, and continues to work on his project until it is deemed by his peers to be up to standards.

There is no reason why the same should not apply to all aspects of mapmaking: graphics, gameplay and XML. We do not hire specialized teams to do the graphics or the gameplay, so why should we have one for the easiest part of it, the XML?

There, I can't put it in any simpler terms.

You are incorrect.
NOT everybody can do graphics, or GP for that matter. That is why people team up to make a map. They for instance, may have a great idea, but not the talent or know-how to do it all. The Foundry through this group effort can indeed allow a Non-artistic person to make a map.

I really do not see why you have got your panties all up in a knot. Are you really trying to say that only doing the XML is worthy of a map medal ?

That is like saying, that just because you showed up for class on one day, that you should get a diploma.

If you want to "make a map" then you should at the very least show up every day. And if you are not an artist, or not a GP genius, then you should be allowed to include at least 2 people that you have "hired" to help you out with it.
Then it would actually be true that "anyone can make a map".

Maybe it would even be a good idea to give out 3 different kinds of medals for each quenched map. One for IDEA and/or director. One for GAMEPLAY. And, One for GRAPHICS.

[ender516]

If I may interject into this little love-in between natty and pork:

I do NOT think that a third medal should be awarded for a map just to be able to give one to the XML author along with the usual gameplay and graphics designers. I appreciate the opportunity to earn a medal for doing the XML when one of the team has decided to forego a medal (viz. Napoleonic Europe 1812), but I understand that some people may feel that this devalues the medal. I recently had a PM related to this topic from a mapmaker who works solo who (mistakenly) thought I was in favour of a third medal and felt it would be wrong for me to get the same medal for my small contribution as the one received for doing the whole shebang. Well, this person may be right, and if it is decided that medals should not be passed along in this manner, then I am fine with that (even retroactively). But there is already the issue of who should get a medal if someone throws an idea into the Melting Pot and then someone else starts working on the graphics and a third person starts making major contributions. This team has to work out who gets the two medals. But if a mapmaker or a team feels the need to bring in an XML author for whatever reason, then I think the reward of a medal should be a possibility. The original idea would likely take even less time to put together than the XML does now with the Wizard, but I don't see people discussing the possibility of blocking the idea person from a medal.

I guess some related questions would be: if a map is worth two medals, should a solo mapmaker get two medals? Should we be designating one medal for graphics and one for gameplay? Should a solo mapmaker be able to hand out one of the medals to someone else? (Presumably, this would be someone who contributed greatly to the map development, but what if it wasn't -- should the Foundry have a veto?)

[natty dread]

If some thing is easy to do, then why exactly do we need a specially dedicated team to do it?
I have told you why. You for some reason refuse to respond to what I said.

No you haven't, and I have responded to everything except when you claim that I "misunderstand" because I don't agree with you. Sure, it's an easy way to debate by trying to refute everything by "no, you misunderstood my post" and changing the actual "meaning" of your post every time your arguments are countered. Here's a thought, try writing what you actually want to say.

You are incorrect.
NOT everybody can do graphics, or GP for that matter. That is why people team up to make a map. They for instance, may have a great idea, but not the talent or know-how to do it all. The Foundry through this group effort can indeed allow a Non-artistic person to make a map.

I repeat, anyone can make a map. Whether they have the talent or knowhow to do it alone is a very different issue and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Just like anyone can code XML. Not everyone has the interest to do it, or the skill or maybe they just don't want to bother, but they can if they want to. There's no reason to change this.

It is very simple, two people can get a medal for making a map. One person must assume "ownership" of a map, and he gets to decide who those medals go to. It's up to each mapmaker's individual judgement, and that is fine the way it is. If you don't want to award a medal for the XML maker who makes the XML for your map, you have all the right to refrain from doing so.

I really do not see why you have got your panties all up in a knot. Are you really trying to say that only doing the XML is worthy of a map medal ?

Yes, if the mapmaker wants to award it.

That is like saying, that just because you showed up for class on one day, that you should get a diploma.

What do you care about other peoples' map medals? How it is in any way affecting your life? If someone wants to give his 2nd medal to the guy who did XML for his map, who are you to say they shouldn't do so?

I myself am currently contributing to a map with 3 makers. I would love to give a medal to the XML maker, but since there's only two medals to give I'm going to give the 2nd medal to the gameplay designer because he's been longer involved in the project. On the other hand if it were just me and the XML maker in the project I would have no problem giving the 2nd medal to the XML guy.

If you want to "make a map" then you should at the very least show up every day. And if you are not an artist, or not a GP genius, then you should be allowed to include at least 2 people that you have "hired" to help you out with it.
Then it would actually be true that "anyone can make a map".

If you want to make a map, then you should at the very least start making one, work hard on it, and get it quenched.

How's that?

No one's stopping several people from working on a map. Really. Go ahead! There are loads of people doing just that right now. What exactly is the problem?

I repeat, anyone can make a map. Provided that they are able and willing to follow the foundry protocol.

Maybe it would even be a good idea to give out 3 different kinds of medals for each quenched map. One for IDEA and/or director. One for GAMEPLAY. And, One for GRAPHICS.

What would you do when a mapmaker does all by himself? Does he then get 3 medals for one map?

I think map medals are fine the way they are. People are taking this medals business way too seriously. Of course it feels good to earn a map medal, but I would keep doing maps even if there were no medals awarded for it. Medals are not why I am in the business. I do not make maps because I yearn for recognition as a supreme gameplay designer or a masterful graphician (ok, well, tbh I kinda do, but only a little ) but mainly I do it because it is fun. And I get to create something that other people may enjoy for the years to come. That's a far greater reward than any virtual medal could ever be.

[oaktown]

wow, much ado about nothing. The original question of this thread was answered eight minutes after it was asked. Everything after that has been just talking in circles.

The current system isn't to everybody's liking (and never will be) but we can agree that maps get made, XML gets written, and deserving people get medals. If there's a situation that warrants special attention by the CA's I'm sure they will address it.

What's that? I think I hear a key turning in a lock somewhere...

[porkenbeans]

Bullshit natty,

Honestly porkenbeans, your idea is not a really good one. Currently, making XML gives people who don't know graphics or gameplay desing a chance to participate in mapmaking and earn medals.

...and earn medals ? -This only cheapens the mapmakers trophy.

And it goes to the essence of what I was trying to say. That is, NO, not everyone "CAN" make a map. Everyone is allowed to try to make a map, but not everyone is "able" to do so.

No you haven't, and I have responded to everything except when you claim that I "misunderstand" because I don't agree with you. Sure, it's an easy way to debate by trying to refute everything by "no, you misunderstood my post" and changing the actual "meaning" of your post every time your arguments are countered. Here's a thought, try writing what you actually want to say.

I said this- If the XML is so simple and fast, then maybe one or two people, should be given the task exclusively. And, instead of a medal, they could just be given "blue" names.

Then you come back with this crap, and try to put words in my mouth.

So this would limit XML making for those who are willing and able to join Team CC.

Which led me to believe that you misunderstood me, which you clearly did. I said exactly what I mean. You on the other hand, are misunderstanding my words. I never said anything about all team CC members must do XML. Where in the hell are you getting this from ? And that is not all. You continue to make false references to what I am saying. I do not mind debating any issue with you, but please at least respond to my words.

[ender516]

Bullshit natty,

Honestly porkenbeans, your idea is not a really good one. Currently, making XML gives people who don't know graphics or gameplay desing a chance to participate in mapmaking and earn medals.

...and earn medals ? -This only cheapens the mapmakers trophy.

And it goes to the essence of what I was trying to say. That is, NO, not everyone "CAN" make a map. Everyone is allowed to try to make a map, but not everyone is "able" to do so.

No you haven't, and I have responded to everything except when you claim that I "misunderstand" because I don't agree with you. Sure, it's an easy way to debate by trying to refute everything by "no, you misunderstood my post" and changing the actual "meaning" of your post every time your arguments are countered. Here's a thought, try writing what you actually want to say.

I said this- If the XML is so simple and fast, then maybe one or two people, should be given the task exclusively. And, instead of a medal, they could just be given "blue" names.

Then you come back with this crap, and try to put words in my mouth.

So this would limit XML making for those who are willing and able to join Team CC.

Which led me to believe that you misunderstood me, which you clearly did. I said exactly what I mean. You on the other hand, are misunderstanding my words. I never said anything about all team CC members must do XML. Where in the hell are you getting this from ? And that is not all. You continue to make false references to what I am saying. I do not mind debating any issue with you, but please at least respond to my words.

[italics mine]
Natty never said anything about all team CC members doing XML. What he said in essence was that if one or two people with blue names were given the task of doing all the XML, then all XML authors would have to be Team CC members, which is the converse of what you took from his words.

[MrBenn]

wow, much ado about nothing. The original question of this thread was answered eight minutes after it was asked. Everything after that has been just talking in circles.

The current system isn't to everybody's liking (and never will be) but we can agree that maps get made, XML gets written, and deserving people get medals. If there's a situation that warrants special attention by the CA's I'm sure they will address it.

What's that? I think I hear a key turning in a lock somewhere...

What he said.

[locked]